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-   -   Do Miche headset needle bearings fit Rudelli/Primax? (https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/918818-do-miche-headset-needle-bearings-fit-rudelli-primax.html)

robertmccormack 10-21-13 12:51 AM

Do Miche headset needle bearings fit Rudelli/Primax?
 
Does anyone know if Miche Primato threaded headset 1" needle bearings fit Rudelli/Primax threaded HS's? I have a Rudelli Sport headset on one bike, and a Primax on the other, which means both fork tubes are now Italian standard. The bearings need replacing, and unfortunately Rudelli went belly up.

Btw, I'd rather not replace the two headsets with the Miche HS, which is ugly, especially as I need a cable hanger and would have to leave the black resin cover off.

JohnDThompson 10-21-13 10:36 AM

I'm not familiar with the bearings in either of those headsets, but you could likely just replace the lower stack if you need to keep the upper stack. The lower stack typically takes all the load in headsets while the upper stack is simply to hold alignment.

FBinNY 10-21-13 11:38 AM

I don't know about Primax, but both my Miche and Rudelli headsets use the same needle and race sandwich as Stronglight Delta. I suspect that there's a single source for the bearing itself (2 races + rollers) and everybody is using the same.

robertmccormack 10-21-13 01:22 PM

FB: that's great news-- Rudelli made Primax. For some reason they changed their name, but the innards of the headsets are the same. Thanks a lot for your help.

robertmccormack 10-21-13 01:49 PM

Thanks for the help, everybody.

Now, does anyone know of an online source for these Miche/ Rudelli (Primax)/ Stronglight roller bearings?

JohnDThompson 10-21-13 02:20 PM


Originally Posted by FBinNY (Post 16178595)
I don't know about Primax, but both my Miche and Rudelli headsets use the same needle and race sandwich as Stronglight Delta. I suspect that there's a single source for the bearing itself (2 races + rollers) and everybody is using the same.

Looks like Tange has the same bearing as well:

http://www.rivbike.com/v/vspfiles/as...ages/hsrdb.jpg

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/hsrd.htm

Perhaps Rivendell could help?

Andrew R Stewart 10-21-13 03:58 PM


Originally Posted by robertmccormack (Post 16179027)
Thanks for the help, everybody.

Now, does anyone know of an online source for these Miche/ Rudelli (Primax)/ Stronglight roller bearings?

I hope if replacement bearing sets are found that it's posted here. i have a few bikes with the Stronglite A-9s. Andy.

JohnDThompson 10-21-13 06:20 PM


Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart (Post 16179412)
I hope if replacement bearing sets are found that it's posted here. i have a few bikes with the Stronglite A-9s. Andy.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. My experience with A9 headsets is that they are virtually indestructible, even with long term neglect. As an experiment, I set up my commuter bike with an A9 headset and rode it in all kinds of weather for 20 years without any maintenance whatsoever. In 2008, after 20 years, I opened it up, cleaned off the old grease, and this is what I found:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/A9.jpg

Some minor discoloration on the lower race, but nothing more. I swapped upper and lower races, reassembled, and will ride it for another 20 years and report back again.

At this point, I have half a dozen bikes with A9s installed, and a Delta (similar design, but with O-ring seals on the cups) on my tandem.

Andrew R Stewart 10-21-13 07:43 PM

John- I strongly disagree, or my experience does. I have used, maybe, 6 or 7 different A-9s or the unsealed equivalent. This is over 20 +/- years. Two aspects stand out.

First is the dent ability of the conical surfaces. One of the challenges of these types of headsets is the many elements at play. I have found that they settle in on each other and this results in a loosening of the preload. I come from a side of the fence that wishes as little bearing preload as possible. So with the A-S a slight initial preload becomes a loose adjustment. If not readjusted this looseness this looseness has lead to dented surfaces. My wife's bike seemed to suffer from this a few times. And her head tube lengths were longer then mine (she rode Terry like bikes). My bikes, even with their shorter HT lengths, didn't have as much a problem with denting but I would be able to recognize and readjust the unit without asking "how's the bike riding, dear?"

Second is the lack of internal open space to contain grease within the bearing area. The plastic carrier of the rollers takes up a bunch of volume. The shape of the cups don't have much extra space either. So the amount of grease which fits in the unit during the rebuild is minimal. Maybe it is my roof rack mounting and high speed driving but i found I would rebuild these headsets often, "O" ring seals be dammed. Of course this nature to bleed out the lube and then the need to rebuild gets us back to the first issue of the settling in of the many parts and then a readjustment or two soon after.

I will say that being able to leave the cups and crown race in place and just the elements is nice, as long as you can source them...

Now that i have moved on to Chris Kings for my current bikes I am happy but still wish for more internal grease volume. Andy.

Andrew R Stewart 10-21-13 07:44 PM

God, I hate this spell check and preview. Andy

robertmccormack 10-28-13 06:59 AM

So, now I'd like to know if the conical ring opposite the Miche/Rudelli/Primax (and maybe Tange) roller bearing cage is the same.

Is this what FBinNY meant by the "sandwich?"

FBinNY 10-28-13 07:57 AM


Originally Posted by robertmccormack (Post 16197841)
So, now I'd like to know if the conical ring opposite the Miche/Rudelli/Primax (and maybe Tange) roller bearing cage is the same.

Is this what FBinNY meant by the "sandwich?"

There are three parts to the bearing, inner and outer races (the conical rings JT pictured above), and the rollers and cage. The complete unit is what I meant by sandwich.

Grand Bois 10-29-13 09:44 AM


Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart (Post 16179412)
I hope if replacement bearing sets are found that it's posted here. i have a few bikes with the Stronglite A-9s. Andy.

They weren't hard to find.

http://www.benscycle.net/index.php?m...oducts_id=4624

Chombi 10-29-13 09:04 PM

My experience with Stronglight A9 headsets since the eayly 80's on my Peugeots had been the same as John's. It's as "bulletproof" as they can be, with adjustment that holds for decades without attention. The requirement for a bit of preload on the bearings is normal to A9s and was never an issue with any of my and my brother's bike's handling.
I also installed a Miche Primato needle bearinged headset on my Alan Carbonio two years ago, and so far it has performed on the bike just as well as my A9s (haven't had yo readjust it yet after the initial bedding in adjustment after the first ride.). I suspect that it's because it's a close copy of the Stronglight A9 and Delta headsets, which IMO, the best components that the French bicycle le industry ever designed!:thumb: So I would not hesitate using the Miche version again on another bike in the future. They are a good bargain too, compared to A9s, as the can be found new at eBay for 40 bucks or even a little less..:thumb:

Kimmo 10-30-13 07:39 AM

I had a HS with a lower race like this years ago, and IIRC it needed a tad more preload but took more before it got grindy... I remember thinking there wasn't much room for grease at the time, it almost needs to be injected or something.

It strikes me that roller races could be particularly vulnerable to corrosion-induced false brinelling if allowed to run dry, simply as a directed consequence of the increased contact area.


Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart (Post 16180023)
Andy.


Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart (Post 16180027)
Andy

Forgive my impertinence, but this always bugs me - why don't you just put 'Andy.' in the signature field on your profile? :twitchy:

Andrew R Stewart 10-30-13 08:11 AM


Originally Posted by Kimmo (Post 16204114)

Forgive my impertinence, but this always bugs me - why don't you just put 'Andy.' in the signature field on your profile? :twitchy:

Kimmo- When i sign documents i use my full name (Andrew R Stewart) as my signature. When i write in a conversational manor i use my common name (Andy). I view this medium as conversational in the text but the profile/personal part more documental. Just my style:).

BTW why do many refuse to sign off with or even state in their profile their "real" name? THIS has always bugged me. Like hiding behind some fake handle gets you brownie points in life? There's a Google list i belong to that requires both real name and location in any post's sign off. Over the years it seems to me that they have less flaming and greater social consideration for each other. Andy (once again trying to be relaxed).

Kimmo 10-30-13 09:24 AM

I guess I have a foot in each camp - I have no particular desire for anonymity, but then I don't want to be particularly traceable for any random nut who takes a disliking, either.

But if you ask me, signing off in this medium is redundant.

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