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Shimano 600 - no B-screw

Old 10-21-13, 12:24 PM
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Shimano 600 - no B-screw

Working on my Bertin - decided to get it geared. Put it together as draft built, everything seemed OK except shifters. So took it apart again, cleaning and adjusting shifter, etc.
While waiting for couple of small parts decided to clean RD. Now for the life of me I can't remember how I put it on at first.
It has no b-screw and I am not sure it is positioned properly. When I manually move it - it is fine, I need of course to pull pulley's cage down a bit when reaching largest cog.
Did I put it on correct? Am I missing something? I know some more modern entry level Shimano RDs do not have b-screw as well and angle is adjusted by housing length but seems not to be the case here.

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Old 10-21-13, 12:45 PM
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Pre-indexed Shimano derailleurs did not have a B-tension adjustment. You have it mounted correctly, with the "ear" behind the stop on the hanger.
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Old 10-21-13, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by techsensei View Post
Pre-indexed Shimano derailleurs did not have a B-tension adjustment. You have it mounted correctly, with the "ear" behind the stop on the hanger.
Pheew! Good to hear - thanks! I still need to re-install the chain, adjust RD limits and run new cables (switching from DT levers to turkey levers)

Thanks!!!
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Old 10-21-13, 04:01 PM
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Creative guys have increased the "B" spring tension with various methods. Drilling extra holes for the spring end, adding a screw to the hanger tab.

What are "turkey levers"? Andy.
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Old 10-21-13, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Creative guys have increased the "B" spring tension with various methods. Drilling extra holes for the spring end, adding a screw to the hanger tab.

What are "turkey levers"? Andy.
I thought they were called suicide levers, stem mounted shifters? Turkey wing levers are dual pivot brakes.
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Old 10-21-13, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Creative guys have increased the "B" spring tension with various methods. Drilling extra holes for the spring end, adding a screw to the hanger tab.

What are "turkey levers"? Andy.
I am not even sure where I picked up the term - basically stem mounted shifters.
I am on the fence whether I should try and work around the lack of b-screw. It definitely needs to be increased and I can probably fiddle with it and get it down. However - the whole look with derailleurs, cogs, shifters just does not do it for me and I am now thinking about may be picking up 3 speed internal hub wheel. I hear SA makes a fixed one with 3 speeds, would be even better.

I will leave it as 1x5 for now (even 5 speeds is too many for me - I'd be totally happy with 3) and see how it goes. It is slow moving project anyway - bike lived through being single speed, fixed and now geared. I guess I love the frame too much and want it to be everything.
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Old 10-21-13, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by oddjob2 View Post
I thought they were called suicide levers, stem mounted shifters? Turkey wing levers are dual pivot brakes.
Yes, yes - I stand corrected! I am no longer confused and know what is the difference between suicide levers and turkey wings
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Old 10-21-13, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post
Working on my Bertin - decided to get it geared. Put it together as draft built, everything seemed OK except shifters. So took it apart again, cleaning and adjusting shifter, etc.
While waiting for couple of small parts decided to clean RD. Now for the life of me I can't remember how I put it on at first.
It has no b-screw and I am not sure it is positioned properly. When I manually move it - it is fine, I need of course to pull pulley's cage down a bit when reaching largest cog.
Did I put it on correct? Am I missing something? I know some more modern entry level Shimano RDs do not have b-screw as well and angle is adjusted by housing length but seems not to be the case here.
Your picture suggests that there is no pre-load on the upper spring pivot. This can happen if the stop tab under the mounting bolt is not properly positioned or if the upper pivot spring has broken or become disengaged from the derailleur body. Installed properly, the pre-load on the upper pivot spring should pull the derailleur back (clockwise) as seen here (Simplex derailleurs were very similar to these older pre-index Shimano units):

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Old 10-21-13, 06:19 PM
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You are correct - there is no pre-load. Anyone has link to shimano techdoc or similar so I can figure it out?
Right now chain length is optimal, bike shifts np, etc - all on big ring.
If i put chain on small ring - there is a sag. Can't shorten the chain anymore - I tried removing two links and largest cog+large chainring put RD in horizontal position, upper pulley touches the cog, etc
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Old 10-21-13, 06:20 PM
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I don't plan to run FD anyway but leaving small ring in place. Would be nice to adjust pre-load so I can use it (even though I can't imagine where I am sure the need will come).
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Old 10-21-13, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Your picture suggests that there is no pre-load on the upper spring pivot.
I hadn't thought about it before, but you are right.

This can happen if the stop tab under the mounting bolt is not properly positioned or if the upper pivot spring has broken or become disengaged from the derailleur body.
Looking closer at the second photo, the dropout looks compromised or modified to my eyes.
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Old 10-21-13, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by techsensei View Post
I hadn't thought about it before, but you are right.



Looking closer at the second photo, the dropout looks compromised or modified to my eyes.
Could be - I never paid attention to it as I was planning to run it fixed or SS. As of now it at least works as 1x5 and I most probably will just get 3 speed wheel, something like that - http://www.somafab.com/archives/prod...00c-rear-wheel, just ideally need to find one with standard rim, no deep-v.
I have plenty of SS and fixed and want to use this one for my rides on the country roads. No real big hills but after first 20K it gets a bit tiring on FG/SS. I obviously need to get in better shape but also would not mind getting it built for a bit more relaxed rides (and still want it to have higher gear, around 90-100 GI).
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Old 10-21-13, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by techsensei View Post
Looking closer at the second photo, the dropout looks compromised or modified to my eyes.
This photo?



Looks kind of like a Huret dropout to me, which wouldn't be out of the question for a Bertin.

Was the Shimano derailleur previously installed and working on this dropout?

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Old 10-21-13, 06:51 PM
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It is likely same as on the front fork - tubing is Raynolds for main triangle and durifort forks and stays so I'd assume something French
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Old 10-21-13, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Looks kind of like a Huret dropout to me
I've worked on bikes for nearly three decades and have never seen a Huret dropout before; had to Google an image of one. Interesting.
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Old 10-22-13, 09:13 AM
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Was that Shimano derailleur installed and working properly on that dropout in the past? Are there any markings on the dropout to indicate who made it? Can you post a close-up picture of the outside face of the dropout and hanger without the derailleur installed?

The reason I ask is that Huret dropouts work best with Huret derailleurs, and often modifications need to be done to get other brands of derailleur to work on a Huret dropout.

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Old 10-22-13, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by techsensei View Post
I've worked on bikes for nearly three decades and have never seen a Huret dropout before; had to Google an image of one. Interesting.
They're mostly seen on European bikes, but Schwinn also used them on some mid-level models in the 1960s through early 70s.
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Old 10-28-13, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Was that Shimano derailleur installed and working properly on that dropout in the past? Are there any markings on the dropout to indicate who made it? Can you post a close-up picture of the outside face of the dropout and hanger without the derailleur installed?

The reason I ask is that Huret dropouts work best with Huret derailleurs, and often modifications need to be done to get other brands of derailleur to work on a Huret dropout.

Hmm, now that I am looking back - shifting did not really work smooth. As I mentioned - I bought it for the frame and did not really pay attention to components. Here is the pic of dropout from initial fixed build:
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Old 10-28-13, 10:47 AM
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So what are my options - which Huret RD should I look for or how can adjust Shimano one I have?
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Old 10-28-13, 10:49 AM
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And no, no markings - I will double check but pretty sure I did not see any on the drop outs
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Old 10-28-13, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mongol777 View Post


So what are my options - which Huret RD should I look for or how can adjust Shimano one I have?
Yes, that's a Huret dropout. Your options include modifying the dropout by building up brass on the hanger to move the stop position from 4 o'clock to 7 o'clock. This would damage the paint on the dropout, though. You could fabricate a tabbed washer for the derailleur to stop against. Or you could use a Huret derailleur. Decent models include the Jubilee ($$$), the Success, and the Challenger. If you plan on running a triple or wider range gearing, the Duopar is the one you want.
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Old 10-28-13, 11:26 AM
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Thank you! Right now it works smooth as 1x5 setup and I quite like it. I am likely to keep single chainring in front for now and perhaps look at adding washer or appropriate RD in spring.
Thank you very much again!!!
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Old 10-28-13, 11:33 AM
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If you'reon a tight budget, the Svelto is essentially a steel Jubilee and often available at fire-sale prices.
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