Over the numbers cruncher, I'll take the craftsman any day. While perfectly tensioned wheels don't always end up round and true, those from the craftsman do!

Of course, you are right about this, but in most of those areas I depend upon statistical process control and quality assurance being used. FSA for example doesn't boast about not needing to perform quality assurance. What set me off in this thread was the bold claim by sixty-fiver that he didn't need to check his product. As I said before, that is one of the mistakes that cost the USA its manufacturing leadership. I consider it to be the height of arrogance.

But you're right that a process focus is paramount. Product inspection is a poor substitute for competent processing. I don't truly believe in using inspection to catch errors due to shoddy processing. But quality assurance can never be completely abandoned. Or at least that is what I was taught. The level of inspection has to be consistent with your established quality history. And even then it should err on the conservative side. My opinion, that's all.

Wanderer, you're misquoting. Nobody said go for perfect tension rather than true. I said true was necessary to even have a wheel worthy of the name, and even tension is necessary for the wheel to last.

Never forget that just like everything else, half of all wheel builders are below average. Whoa, that's not a pretty thought. Are you sure you are using one of the good ones? How would you know? Better not measure anything on the wheel. That would be a cop out. Better just believe his line of blather. That is what a "good" customer would do.

Not naming FSA per se, but some of the worst crap sold in the bike world was made by companies with the best ISO QC protocols. Granted it's well documented crap, but crap nonetheless.

Yeah, that's the funny thing about quality. It doesn't mean something is good, just that it is what it was intended to be. Apparently such manufacturers were making crap, because they wanted to sell crap. Uh, oh! I hope those weren't companies I depend on. :)

I wasn't clear - I mean variance between spokes on the same side of a wheel.

There is no established standard. I like a range less than or equal to the mean plus or minus 5%. Sometimes with crappy rims I have had to settle for plus or minus 20%.

Frankly, I never thought about this. I build as true as practical, and with the most even tension the materials allow. I've never used a tension meter to measure comparative tension, so I can't give you a number.

Based on experience, I'd venture that keeping tension within 10% is relatively easy on modern rims (it was rougher when joint distortion was a common problem), so there's no reason to think about what the worst case limit would be.

You are trying make something out of nothing (typical of QC types)-------- I never quoted anything - just made a statement.

How I use a limit is to decide when to send a rim back for replacement. A few years ago I got a really stinky Velocity Aerohead. Pro Wheel Builder was very gracious about taking it back and sending a replacement that worked much, much better. My numbers told me the story.

Yeah, right out of the blue. What a coincidence!

Very interesting thread. The wheel on the back of my '10 Trek 7100 Hybrid is a bit wobbly/out of true.

I have a truing stand and dish tool [got them from a friend that moved to cali and didn't want to take them with him].

I've considered just attempting to adjust the tension to get it back to true, de-tensioning the whole wheel to see what shape the rim itself is in as well as giving me a chance to lubricate everything prior to re-tensioning and to give me a fresh start, and completely disassembling the wheel and re-assembling it.

This is my kid hauler/leisurely ride bike - my normal bike is my road bike - so it's OK if this one is down for a while. Ultimately I'd really like to end up with a trued wheel that's as true as I can get it both laterally and axially. I know that "within 1mm is acceptable" but I'd really like to spend the time to get it as true as I possibly can.

Being the first time I've done this I'm concerned I'll over-do it and end up creating issues rather than solving them but I figure if I totally hose it I can get a new set of wheels and then use these as learning tools worst case.

Bolding mine... and we are the same page here.

I don't think the customers who have been riding on the wheels I have built for thousands and thousands of miles and who have never had a problem feel like they have been cheated... to date I have had 2 wheels come back to my shop after they failed... one had been hit by a car and another one had been run over by a car.

A few have come back because the rims had worn out after 25,000 - 30,000 km where they needed no servicing.

My partner has been building wheels for over 40 years and uses no tension meter... I have never seen better built wheels than these and he passed on a few secrets he learned from master wheel builders.

Nice to have self proclaimed amateurs tell us how we should be doing what we do, and I do break out the tension meter to calibrate the fingers from time to time but it is not a tool I depend on to build a fine wheel.

Like I said, there are other ways to determine optimal tension with a tension meter and the proof is in the pudding.

Can you share how you straighten rims? At the bike coop we see a ton of mountain bikes with bent rear wheels, even without portly riders. I've been on the lookout for a rim jack, but haven't found one yet. It will be useful to find some way of saving these wheels since most of the owners lack funds to buy a replacement.

How do you know your partner's wheels are so well built? Can you see it? Do you make measurements? Nah, you wouldn 't want to do that. It wouldn't be mystical enough. "Fine" wheels can't be tainted with measurements.

And BTW, FSB got the saying right: "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." It's not, "The proof is in the pudding."

And just so you know, self-proclaimed amateur is not an insult.

I was with you 100% until here. This makes no sense at all.

The correct expression - "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" - does.

My pet peeve one is "I could care less"

Any tips/suggestions/ideas? I can make a new thread if you guys think it's necessary but the thread's already pretty derailed talking about pudding and other euphemisms. :)

Look up the Linda Ronstadt song, "Heart Like a Wheel." "Some say the heart is just like a wheel. You can bend it, but you can't mend it."

Seriously, straightening a rim is never perfect. Lot of folks use wide vise grips or even a bench vise and just squeeze for a rim dinged on one side. I just throw a bent rim away. Life is too short to fool with it.

Mike, my advice is to decide what you are really trying to do. If you are just trying to true the wheel, then just work on the specific problem areas and be done with it. Simple spoke adjustment where necessary to straighten it out without screwing up the tensions too badly. No re-tensioning, etc. But if you want this wheel to be a learning device, then by all means take it down and bring it back up again. Your situation sounds like it would fit well with this activity. And it will be a great learning experience. Just know what you are after before you start.

That is the common mistake. Very, very few people know it the right way, the way you wrote it.

Hey, I just thought of something. Ever see a wood craftsman hand planing a board? He doesn't just eyeball it for straight. He puts a square on it and sights the high and low spots under the square. Where did the idea come from that craft was exclusive of measuring and indicating tools? Even the truing stand qualifies as a meter of sorts.

I could care less, just not much less.

While I would be happy if I could just get it back in true, I think I would be even happier if I learned more about the wheel, how it was built, and how the whole system works as a whole. I'm in no hurry to get the wheel back on the bike but I wasn't sure if I could run into other/larger issues by not simply truing it as it is or if I could create issues by doing so.

Start by separating the bent rims from the warped ones. Most are warped, and can be aligned pretty damm close via the spokes. The key is to work by degrees and gently the rim home, not try to force it home by being ham fisted.

Bent ones are for the ham fisted. Brute force working against a fulcrum of some kind can get the rim close enough that the spokes can bring it home. Different bends need different treatments. A radial bend such as you might get from a deep pothole can be addressed by loosening the spokes in the area, and maybe even removing the nipples completely right at the bend, then pushing the bend out with your foot while holding the wheel. Sideways bends (Taco) need to be bent sideways. Usually I pass on these, but once on a tour someone dropped his rear wheel into a sewer and fell over folding the wheel. I removed some spokes where I needed to work, and used the same sewer grate to bend the wheel flat, relaced and aligned. That wheel finished the trip.

There's no single answer, but experienced mechanics in poorer areas or in the third world work miracles saving wheels that the average LBS mechanic here would give up as dead.