Wheel building advice
 

Hi guys need your expert advice on this matter.

Im doing my first wheel build.
I have used prowheelbuilder calculater with this infos:
ERD 615
Hub flange diameter 37mm
Hub axle size 100mm
Hub flange to lock nut 14mm both side
36 spokes 3 cross pattern

After calculation it gave me 300mm spokes length.

Now the other day after some youtube guide while doing it, followed it step by step.
I managed to build it up. (Note, i have only done the initial lacing) but i feel there is something wrong.
See the series of photos im uploading, noticed that almost every two nipples in the rim are longer than the succeeding two nipples. I havent really tighten them as i am starting only.

So my questions are:
Is this normal for a wheel build?
After the first spokes lacing, I did the over, over, under and skip techinique described in the video.
Right now all the spokes are like curved and loose
I feel that if I proceed to tighten the nipple at this stage it wont be enough to make them, as tight and true as possible. Noticed on photos i only have 4-6mm thread space left.

Im okay to do it all over again as i have time and in no rush.
This is just my back up wheel.

Any help and info will be greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance guys.


Orzalana

300mm is very long for a small flange/tubular rim combination, so I suspect that you might miscalculated someplace. Since computers don't make mistakes, it was likely some data entry error.

First of all, where did you get the 615 ERD value? This seems very large for a tubular tire rim, where I'd expect something closer to 607 or so.

Otherwise the build looks OK, so I suspect it's simply that the spokes are too long.

Hi FB

Thanks for the response. The 615mm I got it from tha actual measurement of 607mm inside rim diameter plus the offset of the two nipples 4mm each. Hence the 615 ERD.

And from the calculator it gave me a spoke length of 300.7 I even disregarded the decimal.
But really, now I also am suspicious that the spoke is too long.
But what I'm really curious about is that half of the spokes looks alright but the other half is not?

Can the spokes be fitted to size? I know I can cut it (i have a dremel) but what about the thread?

ANy other tips guys? I really wanted to make this right.

Thanks
orzalana

Tighten them down just to be certain. They might be too long but they still should mostly even out if laced correctly. Did you measure the spokes after receiving them? I have received incorrect spokes before (from more than one source).

The Hi-Lo issue usually means that the two flanges aren't correctly phased when the spokes go to the rim. Take a look at the 2 heads in spokes that line up with the Shimano 105 logo in your photo. The spoke on the bottom is one position to the left of the one on top. That means it should go to the rim one hole to the left from the one on top. (directions based on the photo) If it doesn't that's the Hi-Lo.

If it is going to the right hole, the hub may be slightly rotated giving you alternating Hi-Lo spokes, but that would self resolve as you tighten the spokes.

Now, as to whether overly long spokes will still work, that depends on the amont of usable thread you have. Some spoke/nipple combination run out of thread and jam with the spoke about 1mm beyond the head, others allow much more overrun letting the spoke come up 4-5mm or so. Take any nipple and thread it on a spoke and see how much leeway you'll have. If it's very little, odds are you'll run out of thread, but if you have 2-3mm beyond the head you may skate by.

Only way to know for sure is to tighten a bit more (if the phasing is right) and see where it's headed. FYI, you usually need 2mm or so from where the spokes are tight enough to be straight.

Maybe it's the camera angle, but something looks a bit "wonky" to me.

You basically have 8 "pie shaped" groups of 4.
It looks like some of them aren't the same as others.

I run the nipples on far enough to cover the threads before I'd really make an "appraisal" though.
Do you have another 32 spoke wheel handy to do a spoke by spoke comparison?

Not a very good wheel builder, but something about the measurements sounds amiss...

14mm flange to axle nut? I'm not familiar with the Op's choice of calculator, but the ones I've seen use a flange to center measurement...I'm guessing 36mm based on the OP's data (14mm flange to axle leaves aprox 72mm flange-to-flange, so 36mm flange to center???

FB, "307 ERD? Was this a typo? on a 622 rim isn't that approaching a 160mm deep profile, or am I incorrect in thinking ERD is the inside diameter of the rim?

Me too. Take a look at: Wheelbuilding Check your wheel against Sheldon's instructions. I have had a wonky lacing when I got the first spoke in the 2nd group off by one hole - didn't spot it until starting the 4th group; had to take the 3rd and 2nd group completely apart.......

If the spokes were too long and that was the only problem you would be able to rotate the hub so that all the spokes are sticking out the same amount. If you aren't able to do so then you mounted the spokes on the 2nd flange incorrectly. Note that the two spokes that are sticking out are coming from the same direction on the hub. That is an indication that you have laced the 2nd flange incorrectly. You will have to remove all spokes from one flange and start that one over.

To the OP,

Something to consider which puts everybody at a disadvantage on a first build.

While most or all spoke calculators use the same basic formula which is nothing more than simple(?) trigonometry, there are a number of fudge factors that they may handle differently.

The first and most significant turns on the ERD. These days, most Americans consider this to mean the diameter taken at the tops of the nipples, or intended spoke end circle, Europeans often consider ERD to mean the diameter at the nipple seat, which is about 5-6mm less. You measured the ERD yourself and so know what you mean, but you don't know what the programmer had in mind.

Other fudge factors include an allowance for the longer path of laced spokes vs. the straight line route, elongation of the spoke under tension, the difference between the inside of the elbow from where spokes are measured to the center of the hole where hubs are measured.

So, even with indetical data entered the various programs will give results varying by a few millimeters. This is why it doesn't matter what program you use, as long as you;re consistent. Once you build a wheel, you'll know how different the results are compared to what you expected, and can from now forward "correct" the answer if you use the same calculator, and enter consistent data. However, the 1st build is always something of a crapshoot.

check out this book. Everything you've ever wanted to know about wheels and more.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Bicycle-Wh.../dp/0960723668

Hope you used swaged spokes.

With the spokes that loose the hub isn't level or centered. I agree FB, tighten them up.

Hi guys thanks for the responses.

FB - thanks for the detailed directions and observations. think i have must have made a mistake on the 2nd group of spokes insertion. need to amend/re-do this while im still in the early stage than tightening them and might loosen the thread on my nipples later.

cny-bikeman - i think you are right, need to go back and re do them

nfmiso - thanks for the link, i will definitely go over this

trunolimit - its quite a long read but will skip on other pages on concentrate on the wheel lacing part only for now

I will try to do as you guys suggested and will keep you guys posted with some pictures if I succeeded :-)
Heck, even if it's a fail will still update so future wheelbuilder can learn from this.

thanks again!
orzalana

Glad that I stopped building first and have asked you guys and seek advise.


Page 93 of the wheel building book sent by trunolimit.


"4. All of the outer spoke crossings should lie at about the same distance from the hub.
5. All spokes should be uniformly loose. If any spokes are alternately tight and loose in pairs, then they are probably in the wrong holes in the hub or rim.
Errors in spoke placement must be corrected before tightening to prevent irreparable damage to the hub."


Will re-do this from the top and hope for the best?

Orzalana

Hey OP, I entered your measurements into edd and got ~300mm spokes so you probably just messed up with the lacing (assuming your measurements were correct). I would remove everything and start over lacing from scratch.

Been there, done that...

I've removed the link from my quote, but... ...that book (Jobst Brandt's "The Bicycle Wheel") is still widely available for purchase. It's the same as my (paper) copy, but the copyright page has been removed from the PDF. In other words, it's not legal. Assuming that's not your site I don't mean to accuse you, Trunolimit, of anything personally - let me know if you know otherwise...

Awe man I'm really sorry. I just did a google search for the book when it was recommended to me and found that link. I figure because the book was so old it was just out there for free. My apologies.

Even the latest edition is old enough to drink, yeah - there's very little on low spoke count wheels, carbon, unusual patterns etc. But (with all of one wheelset under my belt) I still found it well worth buying.

I figure the market for this stuff is so tiny, better to support it! :)

From what I understand low spoke count = bad.

And the book even goes into why low spoke count is bad. I went from a 36 spoke wheel to a 24 spoke wheel. I was shoked that the 36 spoke wheel felt lighter. It's because you need a stronger rim to compensate.

FWIW, when I built my first set of wheels, I found this site extremely helpful. Best I found. I have had Brandt's book since it first came out. But there is a lot of stuff that isn't in it, I found.

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