daveed

I gave up lacing my fifth wheel build tonight after being unable to lace a driveside DT Swiss Comp to a 700 rim (WTB i19s). The dang spoke just wouldn't reach the 12mm nipple no matter how hard I pulled on the hub.

I laced the first 8 DS spokes w/o a problem, turning each three times. I managed to lace three of the second eight DS spokes (under-under-over) before the aforementioned problem. Will 16mm nips work for the remaining DS spokes? I'd hate to go back and re-lace everything using 16s. Btw I checked the lengths with the bike shop before ordering the spokes so I likely have the right size for the Shimano 105 5700 hub.

Any help is much appreciated.

fholt

don't try it. You either don't have the correct spoke length, or you're not laced right. Are you sure you are only crossing 3 spokes (knowing the first cross is normally right at the hub?). If your spokes are too short, it's worth it to figure out your options. You might find you're 2mm short, in which case 14mm nips might make sense to save the day, but all around for sure. You might also adjust the cross down to 2, depending on the numbers you find. It might also be that you really don't have workable spokes. Do not half ass the drive side with 3 12mm nips, and 5 16mm. Really not a quality build there, even if you do get it laced.

daveed

That sounds like sensible advice fholt. Thank you! FYI: I'm sticking with a 3x lace if only because I laced the front that way.

LastKraftWagen

I'm not sure, but I thought I heard somewhere (perhaps a Bill Mould youtube video???) that using longer spoke nipples actually didn't give you more/lower threads. Again, not sure because why longer ones then, but for some reason this comes to mind.

Then, even if the longer spoke nipples do get the spoke threads to engage, will there be enough engagement to keep from ripping the nipple head off? Shouldn't the spokes be threaded as close to the screwdriver slot as possible for this reason?

If your first group all threaded ok, and the second set is the same size, then it must be a lacing problem causing the problem. Can't see how all the outer (sounds like you laced the outers first) all threaded but the same size inners won't.

Reynolds 

According to Edd and Spocalc, your spokes should be 295mm left/294mm right.

mrrabbit 

Nipples are nipples...they are not spoke extenders. If the ends of the spokes do not penetrate the full thickness of the rim seat - those ends become stress risers where the barrel meets the head. Problem worsens if the ends of the spokes barely make it to the inner rim surface to begin with.

Check your lacing - else longer spokes - both already noted above.

=8-)

FBinNY 

Nipple length has nothing to do with correct spoke length. The spoke is supposed to reach into the head of the nipple which is always the same place regardless of nipple length. The main (only?) advantage(?) of using longer nipples is that they hide the threads when the spokes are too short. They can also make lacing simper, since it's easier to catch the 1st thread, which is one reason high production builders seem to like them

The real reason for longer nipples is for rims like the wood insert type of back when, that are thicker beween the nipple seat and inner surface. Otherwise there's no benefit to longer nipples in most builds.

BTW- if the spokes don't reach here are the 3 most common reasons

1- miscalculated spoke length
2- incorrect lacing, either more crosses, or incorrect phasing between the flanges
3- flanges are thick and the spokes are bowed using some working length. Set the elbow by pushing the spoke to the need line of action.
3- above 3 are actually OK, but the nipples are hanging up in the holes opposite where you're working. This is fairly common with non-eyeletted rims.

Check 1&2 and lace carefully, then deal with no. 3 or 4 if they apply.

Good luck.

dabac

Kinda-sorta. Yes, the spoke head is always in the same place. But - for DT at least - a spoke will bottom out earlier in a longer nipple. A 16 mm DT nipple won't allow a regular DT spoke to reach full penetration of the spoke head before running out of thread. Tried it myself too.
If you want to keep some marging for future trueing on a DT parts wheel build, with 16 mm nipples you need to let the spoke end below the head at time-of-build. Or be ready to drill out the threads a bit. Or replace the spokes with shorter.

See pic:

(Pic gratefully stolen from Nipple length affecting spoke length?- Mtbr.com)

daveed

Gulp. I'm using 293s on the drive-side. Thanks for all the advice, everyone.

Dan Burkhart 

This is true. It is why I adapted my spoke threader to apply 13mm of thread for occasions when I use 16mm nipples.

FBinNY 

1mm or even 2mm short shouldn't casue your problem lacing. Something lse is going on, so check 2-4 on the list I posted above. Most likely two.

dabac

Gotta get me one of those...

Drilling out the nipples from the narrow end works, but it's a slow process. Good for repair work, to be able to finish something off, but not something to plan a build around. Unless you have extra time to kill off.

FBinNY 

Agreed, but to me, this is just another reason not to use longer nipples. As I posted earlier, unless the rim calls for longer nipples, which is rare these days, there's no benefi to longer nipples, so shortening the spoke length is the wrong solution. The right answer is that if the nipple doesn't allow the spoke to reach the head, with margin for error, change the nipple to one that's correct.

Reynolds 

It's not good practice, but I've seen wheels built with too long spokes and when the nipples bottomed out, they were forced past the threads a couple of turns and the protruding spoke tips were ground off with no bad practical consequences. Maybe the builder was too lazy to unlace the wheel, get the correct spokes and lace again, or more likely he had to do with what spokes he had at hand.

+1

Dan Burkhart 

This is true, and where I use long nipples, it's mostly for aesthetic reasons. 12mm nipples just look wrong on a rim with a 80mm profile, at least in my humble opinion.

FBinNY 

Yes, I should have said no mechanical benefit. Cosmetic benefits also count, and I agree that longer nipples somehow look better on some combinations.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, the women lacing 60 wheels per hour in production find it easier to work with long nipples, which is one reason we see them so often on production wheels. Some spoke makers compensate with longer threads on the spokes they sell to OEMs so it all works out correctly.

Wilfred Laurier

Sounds like the common hub flange phase shift that FB mentioned.

FBinNY 

If this is the first flange laced, it's almost certainly because of crossing one too many.

If it's the second flange laced, it's most likely a phasing error, and odds are you'll have to remove all the spokes from this flange and move them over one hole. You also get this error if you reverse the pulling and pushing spokes when lacing that flange, so may not have to move the spokes, just switch the direction.

daveed

Yes FBinNY it was a phasing problem. I don't why I can't figure our where to put the first spoke. I probably should take a wheel-building class. Still, I love telling people I built my wheels.

FBinNY 

Phasing is really easy to get right. Unfortunately it seems easy to get wrong also. Here's how to get it right every time.

Hold the rim vertical in front of you with the valve at 9 o'clock. If you care about the label, the built wheel will be rolling to your right, so turn the label accordingly. Now look at the two holes immediately above the valve, where you'll be attaching the 2 "pulling" spokes (1ea. from each flange). Counting up from the valve, determine if the holes are right (toward you)/left, or left right. Whichever way it is, make note because that's how the spokes go to the respective flanges, and which is first.

Now, take the hub and put a dot at a hole in the right flange. Put a straightedge (or spoke) across the hub and put a dot at the gap between the two holes opposite the one you marked.

Now to phase. If the rim is left/right, the hub has to be also, so the left flange spoke will go to the hole in the left flange to the left of the dot, or before (earlier on a clock) than the one on the right. These two pulling spokes can be elbow-in or elbow-out depending on your choice (I build pulling elbow out, JB followers build elbow in). BTW- if the rim is right left, the left spoke will be to the right of the dot (later by the clock).

You can thread the one left spoke now so you don't forget, or can mark the hole for the other pulling spoke at your option.

So it's that simple, left/right in the rim means left/right in the hub. Once you have it in your head you'll never make this mistake again, and can move onto more interesting errors.

daveed

"So it's that simple, left/right in the rim means left/right in the hub. Once you have it in your head you'll never make this mistake again, and can move onto more interesting errors.

Ha! Thanks for the detailed instructions FBinNY. I can't wait.