Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Is replacing cones that unusual?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Is replacing cones that unusual?

Old 10-19-14, 04:37 PM
  #1  
kingston 
Jedi Master
Thread Starter
 
kingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lake Forest, IL
Posts: 3,719

Bikes: https://stinkston.blogspot.com/p/my-bikes.html

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1757 Post(s)
Liked 479 Times in 309 Posts
Is replacing cones that unusual?

I have an inexpensive Shimano Deore 26" M525 Disc/Sun Ringle Rhyno Lite Wheelset that I use on my winter bike. I serviced the hubs today and noticed that the cones were a little pitted, so I stopped by the LBS to pick up some new ones. They said that there are no replacement cones for the m525, but they could order some m475 cones that might work. I asked why there are no replacement cones for the m525, and they told me that nobody services those hubs. When they go bad, people just replace the whole wheel because the rim usually wears through before the cones go bad. They also told me that I am their only customer who services his own hubs. Does that whole thing seem a little odd to anyone else?
kingston is offline  
Old 10-19-14, 04:56 PM
  #2  
Gresp15C
Senior Member
 
Gresp15C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,801
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1031 Post(s)
Liked 613 Times in 394 Posts
I've had pitted cones too. On one occasion, I was getting ready to dig through my parts bucket for a spare, when I noticed a crack in the hub.

If I understand how cone bearings work, they should be relatively forgiving of slight differences in the dimensions of the races, so I'd guess that if the new cone looks OK by eyeball, it will probably work in the wheel. This is something that could be harvested from a junked wheel if you ever come across one.
Gresp15C is offline  
Old 10-19-14, 05:12 PM
  #3  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 36,740

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4770 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 759 Times in 473 Posts
It would have been surprising 20-30 years ago in the USA, but we've moved from a fixit to a replace-it era. It's kind of ironic when the world is becoming focused on recycling and the environment, but that's the way it is.

Cone replacement used to be fairly common years ago because hubs used to see outlandish mileage, with maybe 3-4 or more rims laced on them over their service life. However, nowadays few people lace new rims onto hubs (people here on BF notwithstanding), especially lower tier hubs.

The other thing to consider is that most manufacturers, along with many dealers have gutted their service parts programs. It seems that service is just to inconvenient, and not a revenue generator.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 10-19-14, 06:34 PM
  #4  
garage sale GT
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
I have M525s and they are good after about 8 years of casual use.

The way you tighten the skewers is important. Too tight or too loose can both ruin cones. The quick release skewer compresses the axle a little bit and moves the cones closer to each other.

On a quick release axle the cones are normally left a bit looser than to have firm contact with the bearing balls because proper tightening of the quick release will take away the clearance in the cones by compressing the axle. The cones should have a bit of preload with the quick release closed but too much will ruin the cones.

There should be several threads on cone adjustment and skewer adjustment. I have posted what I think to be the best method before. There's also parktool.com and sheldonbrown.com. Or, you could let the shop do it then follow their instructions on skewer adjustment carefully.

Last edited by garage sale GT; 10-19-14 at 06:49 PM.
garage sale GT is offline  
Old 10-19-14, 08:08 PM
  #5  
Dave Mayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,282
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1025 Post(s)
Liked 304 Times in 192 Posts
Originally Posted by kingston View Post
I have an inexpensive Shimano Deore 26" M525 Disc/Sun Ringle Rhyno Lite Wheelset that I use on my winter bike. I serviced the hubs today and noticed that the cones were a little pitted, so I stopped by the LBS to pick up some new ones. They said that there are no replacement cones for the m525, but they could order some m475 cones that might work. I asked why there are no replacement cones for the m525, and they told me that nobody services those hubs. When they go bad, people just replace the whole wheel because the rim usually wears through before the cones go bad. They also told me that I am their only customer who services his own hubs. Does that whole thing seem a little odd to anyone else?
M525 hubs are about the most common MTB hubs on the planet. The rears use standard 1/4" balls, 10mm axles, and relatively standard cones. These hubs are also about as good as anyone needs, and if properly maintained, will provide a lifetime of reliable service.

Download the schematics for these hubs from the Shimano website. Buy the parts online. The cones will cost about $6 each. Get new balls while you're at it. Bags 100 front and 100 rear balls will cost about $10.

Or look at the back of your shop. They have a pile of wrecked MTB wheels (rim failures) from which the cones can be scavenged.

All of this is bike maintenance 101.
Dave Mayer is offline  
Old 10-19-14, 08:42 PM
  #6  
kingston 
Jedi Master
Thread Starter
 
kingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lake Forest, IL
Posts: 3,719

Bikes: https://stinkston.blogspot.com/p/my-bikes.html

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1757 Post(s)
Liked 479 Times in 309 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
M525 hubs are about the most common MTB hubs on the planet. The rears use standard 1/4" balls, 10mm axles, and relatively standard cones. These hubs are also about as good as anyone needs, and if properly maintained, will provide a lifetime of reliable service.

Download the schematics for these hubs from the Shimano website. Buy the parts online. The cones will cost about $6 each. Get new balls while you're at it. Bags 100 front and 100 rear balls will cost about $10.

Or look at the back of your shop. They have a pile of wrecked MTB wheels (rim failures) from which the cones can be scavenged.

All of this is bike maintenance 101.
That's exactly why I thought it was weird that the guys at the shop apparently had no idea what I was talking about when I asked for some replacement cones for a very common hub. They told me that they have literally never had a customer ask for replacement cones before. They ordered the m475 cones for me. All four were twelve bucks, and I presume they will work. I have been known to re-use headset bearings, but never a hub bearing.
kingston is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 01:07 AM
  #7  
jsdavis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,322
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Maybe because it is your area? I had to go to several bike shops, but I was able to find cones for two Formula hubs. I got the impression it's pretty rare someone like me comes around looking for stuff like that though becasue it took a while for them to find matching cones.
jsdavis is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 04:37 AM
  #8  
sonatageek
Senior Member
 
sonatageek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cleveland,Ohio
Posts: 2,784
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Maybe the part is too cheap for you bike shop to want to bother?
sonatageek is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 07:27 AM
  #9  
Slash5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 1,891
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 263 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Bikeman Shimano Alivio 105 Deore Right Rear Hub Cone
Bikeman Shimano STX,DEORE,Alivio Left Rear Hub Cone with Dust Cap
Slash5 is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 08:02 AM
  #10  
kingston 
Jedi Master
Thread Starter
 
kingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lake Forest, IL
Posts: 3,719

Bikes: https://stinkston.blogspot.com/p/my-bikes.html

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1757 Post(s)
Liked 479 Times in 309 Posts
Very helpful. Thanks for tracking that down. Hopefully these are the same parts the shop ordered for me.
kingston is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 08:22 AM
  #11  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 13,293

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1560 Post(s)
Liked 887 Times in 632 Posts
IF they ordered parts for a 475, they are different than a 525.

Go to the Wheels Manufacturing website.

Front CN-RO52
Rear CN-RO60 & CN-RO63

Last edited by Bill Kapaun; 10-20-14 at 08:46 AM.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 11:41 AM
  #12  
kingston 
Jedi Master
Thread Starter
 
kingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lake Forest, IL
Posts: 3,719

Bikes: https://stinkston.blogspot.com/p/my-bikes.html

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1757 Post(s)
Liked 479 Times in 309 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
IF they ordered parts for a 475, they are different than a 525.

Go to the Wheels Manufacturing website.

Front CN-RO52
Rear CN-RO60 & CN-RO63
I see from the picture now that the 475 won't work. I can't find the CN-R052 on the Wheels Manufacturing website and I can't find any cones for the front hub on bikeman. Does nobody service the hubs because the parts are too hard to get or are the parts too hard to get because nobody services the hubs?
kingston is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 11:44 AM
  #13  
FBinNY 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 36,740

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 131 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4770 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 759 Times in 473 Posts
Originally Posted by kingston View Post
..... Does nobody service the hubs because the parts are too hard to get or are the parts too hard to get because nobody services the hubs?
I'll tell you after you tell me which came first -- chicken or egg.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.

“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin

“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN

WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 11:48 AM
  #14  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,599

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,343 Times in 850 Posts
Well the dinosaur came before the chicken and they laid eggs ..
fietsbob is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 01:37 PM
  #15  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 13,293

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1560 Post(s)
Liked 887 Times in 632 Posts
Shimano/QBP numbers

Model # Drive QBP Non-Drive QBP
FH-M525 Y3AE03000 HU3818 & Y3AE98030 HU3266

HB-M525 Y21L98020 HU3146
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 02:05 PM
  #16  
kingston 
Jedi Master
Thread Starter
 
kingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lake Forest, IL
Posts: 3,719

Bikes: https://stinkston.blogspot.com/p/my-bikes.html

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1757 Post(s)
Liked 479 Times in 309 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Shimano/QBP numbers

Model # Drive QBP Non-Drive QBP
FH-M525 Y3AE03000 HU3818 & Y3AE98030 HU3266

HB-M525 Y21L98020 HU3146
That's awesome, Bill. Thank you so much for looking those up for me.
Looks like I won't have to get a new wheelset now. My wife will be so disappointed.
kingston is offline  
Old 10-20-14, 08:23 PM
  #17  
kingston 
Jedi Master
Thread Starter
 
kingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lake Forest, IL
Posts: 3,719

Bikes: https://stinkston.blogspot.com/p/my-bikes.html

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1757 Post(s)
Liked 479 Times in 309 Posts
I took these part numbers to the shop today and they still couldn't track down the cones for the front hub after a half hour of searching. They are going to call Shimano for me tomorrow. I feel kind of bad wasting so much of their time trying to track down such an inexpensive part, but they have been super helpful.
kingston is offline  
Old 10-21-14, 07:46 AM
  #18  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 25,863

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 138 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5254 Post(s)
Liked 2,825 Times in 1,667 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Cone replacement used to be fairly common years ago because hubs used to see outlandish mileage, with maybe 3-4 or more rims laced on them over their service life.
I agree with most everything you said except this point. I don't think people were putting in any more mileage than they are today. Some may have been but the general population was using their bikes about as much as we use them today. The difference is in hub construction and design. Hubs from the 80s and early 90s had appalling sealing mechanisms. Most hubs had "dust seals" which had large enough gaps to let boulders into the hubs which ground up the cones. By the mid 90s, mountain bike people were clamoring for something better and manufacturers came up with better sealing methods. The lowest end Shimano hub today has better seals than the top end Shimano hub of 1994.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 10-21-14, 07:52 AM
  #19  
Sixty Fiver
Bicycle Repair Man !!!
 
Sixty Fiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: YEG
Posts: 27,268

Bikes: See my sig...

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 31 Posts
We live in a disposable society, the bicycle industry is particularly bad and downright wasteful.
Sixty Fiver is offline  
Old 10-21-14, 08:05 AM
  #20  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,091

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 147 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3198 Post(s)
Liked 2,514 Times in 1,479 Posts
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Hubs from the 80s and early 90s had appalling sealing mechanisms. Most hubs had "dust seals" which had large enough gaps to let boulders into the hubs which ground up the cones. By the mid 90s, mountain bike people were clamoring for something better and manufacturers came up with better sealing methods. The lowest end Shimano hub today has better seals than the top end Shimano hub of 1994.
I still have Campagnolo Record hubs from the 70s that run as smoothly as any modern sealed hub. And I go several years between overhauls.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 10-22-14, 07:49 AM
  #21  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 25,863

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 138 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5254 Post(s)
Liked 2,825 Times in 1,667 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
I still have Campagnolo Record hubs from the 70s that run as smoothly as any modern sealed hub. And I go several years between overhauls.
Special case. Campagnolo used harder steels for their cones and closer tolerances. Their seals were about the same as others of the era, however...i.e. nonexistent.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
cyccommute is offline  
Old 10-22-14, 07:53 AM
  #22  
cny-bikeman
Mechanic/Tourist
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 7,510

Bikes: 2008 Novara Randonee - love it. Previous bikes:Motobecane Mirage, 1972 Moto Grand Jubilee (my fave), Jackson Rake 16, 1983 C'dale ST500.

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 482 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I'll tell you after you tell me which came first -- chicken or egg.
That one's easy - because a non-chicken can lay an egg whose chromosomes have mutated sufficiently to create a chicken, the (chicken) egg came first. Your turn.
cny-bikeman is offline  
Old 10-22-14, 07:58 AM
  #23  
cny-bikeman
Mechanic/Tourist
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 7,510

Bikes: 2008 Novara Randonee - love it. Previous bikes:Motobecane Mirage, 1972 Moto Grand Jubilee (my fave), Jackson Rake 16, 1983 C'dale ST500.

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 482 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Cone replacement was easier back in the 70's because most cones were very simple - no labyrinth or other seals mounted on them, and there were only a few models by a few manufacturers on most bikes. Now Shimano alone has multiple hub styles and there are many more hub brands besides, plus the differences brought about by different sealing strategies and cassette hubs.
cny-bikeman is offline  
Old 10-22-14, 02:33 PM
  #24  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,091

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 147 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3198 Post(s)
Liked 2,514 Times in 1,479 Posts
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Special case. Campagnolo used harder steels for their cones and closer tolerances. Their seals were about the same as others of the era, however...i.e. nonexistent.
I have to disagree with your assessment of their seals as well. They were closely matched to the axle, and the dustcaps had an extended flange creating a long, narrow channel to inhibit debris penetration. And you could add oil through the oil port to flush debris out of the channel on a regular basis. The pedals and bottom brackets had rifling that was designed to move debris out with normal pedaling action. All in all, they were quite well designed and have held up better than cheap cartridge bearings in my experience.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 10-22-14, 04:32 PM
  #25  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 25,863

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 138 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5254 Post(s)
Liked 2,825 Times in 1,667 Posts
Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
Cone replacement was easier back in the 70's because most cones were very simple - no labyrinth or other seals mounted on them, and there were only a few models by a few manufacturers on most bikes. Now Shimano alone has multiple hub styles and there are many more hub brands besides, plus the differences brought about by different sealing strategies and cassette hubs.
You paid the price for that simplicity, however. And the price was more cone replacement. The labyrinth seals of modern cup and cone hubs makes replacing the cones far less common because they don't get contaminated. I'd much rather have the labyrinth seals.

Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
I have to disagree with your assessment of their seals as well. They were closely matched to the axle, and the dustcaps had an extended flange creating a long, narrow channel to inhibit debris penetration. And you could add oil through the oil port to flush debris out of the channel on a regular basis. The pedals and bottom brackets had rifling that was designed to move debris out with normal pedaling action. All in all, they were quite well designed and have held up better than cheap cartridge bearings in my experience.
No doubt they were a better design but they still didn't seal like new hubs do.

We aren't, by the way, talking about cartridge bearing hubs here. I've never found a hub with a cartridge bearing to be "cheap", until, maybe, recently. They have always been at the high end of the price spectrum in my experience. A Phil Wood FSC hub rivals just about anything in terms of price and durability that Campy ever made.
__________________
Stuart Black
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
cyccommute is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.