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IGH for derailleur bike?

Old 11-03-14, 10:15 PM
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jyl
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IGH for derailleur bike?

Is there such a thing as:
- a two or three speed internal gear hub
- that will accept a standard thread-on multi speed freewheel (like a five or six speed freewheel)
- that can be used on a derailleur bike? The IGH shifter can be whatever, but it has to allow using the bike's original shifters and derailleur.
- it cannot be a coaster brake IGH, which I guess goes without saying since I did mention "freewheel"
- and it has to be able to be squeezed into 126 mm wide rear dropouts

Bonus points if it looks decent - or can at least be sanded and polished to a shiny finish - and doesn't weigh as much as a watermelon.

The idea would be to take a very old "ten speed" with close ratios (like a 52/46 x corncob freewheel), and give it a whole new set of low gears - without losing the original crank, corncob, or derailleurs/shifters. I'd polish up the IGH so hopefully it wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb. And I'd hide the IGH shifter somewhere like on the seat tube. In most riding I'd run the IGH in the straight through, most efficient gear. When the hills are too much for my legs + 46x17, I'd reach down, pretending to take my water bottle, and shift the IGH into its low gear. With luck, the suffering C&V riders around me, toiling in their 42x21, will never realize what happened. "My God," they'd croak, "look at that man spinning up this 15% grade in 46x17! He looks like a fat little porkchop, but he is actually Eddy reborn! I will buy him a beer just to be in his presence." Bwuahahahaha!

I know there is the SRAM Dual Drive. But honestly it looks like a Pet Rock and requires a horrid plastic twist grip/slide button shifter.

Last edited by jyl; 11-05-14 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 11-03-14, 10:38 PM
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You need to look at Sheldon Brown's 63 speed bike.

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Old 11-03-14, 11:02 PM
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Thank you!

So would something like the S-RF3 work? Sturmey Archer

Shift the hub to the left by moving spacers while maintaining 127 OLD, attach freewheel, trim axle length as needed, build wheel with rather more dish than a five speed normally has?

EDIT: no, that doesn't take a thread on freewheel. Drat.

EDIT AGAIN: okay, I am reading Sheldon's explanation more carefully. He says he fitted the freewheel to the AW-3 hub by

"The cluster is a Sun Tour "Ultra 6" unit, which is threaded onto a threaded (old-style) Sturmey-Archer driver. This means of attachment leaves the freewheel rather far from the spokes, so far that there is room for a seventh sprocket. I have mounted the extra sprocket by bolting it (a 28 tooth) to the 24 tooth sprocket on the freewheel. (On my 54-speed tandem, I did a similar modification, turning a 5-speed 14-28 freewheel into a 6-speed 14-36, using an old T.A. chain ring as a rear sprocket."

What is he saying? What is a "driver"?

Last edited by jyl; 11-03-14 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 11-03-14, 11:21 PM
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Boh SRAM and Sturmey Archer offer a version. SRAM calls it "Dual Drive" and Sturmey has the CS RC3 which can handle a seven speed cassette. I suspect these were developed for folders where a front derailleur/ multiple chain wheel wasn' t practical. l have an older 5 speed hub which is wearing an antique Cyclo Benelux triple cog for SA hubs- sort of the C&V answer to your idea....
Unfortunately, it specs to 135 mm OLD. You would have to commit to spreading the drop outs.

Last edited by elcraft; 11-03-14 at 11:27 PM. Reason: typos, additional info
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Old 11-03-14, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
Thank you!

So would something like the S-RF3 work? Sturmey Archer

Shift the hub to the left by moving spacers while maintaining 127 OLD, attach freewheel, trim axle length as needed, build wheel with rather more dish than a five speed normally has?

EDIT: no, that doesn't take a thread on freewheel. Drat.
Correct, you can't put a normal freewheel on an S-RF3. Very old (1950's-ish) S-A hubs had a threaded driver, but these are very rare and prized. Also, they were tried in the early MTB days- very low gears combined with weak S-A internals resulted in nuclear disassembly.

The closest to what you want is the SRAM Dual Drive type hub and similar units from Sunrace Sturmey-Archer:
Universal Cycles -- Sturmey Archer CS-RF3 3x9 Speed Disc Hub
In theory you could thread a freewheel on the S3X hub driver, but that's chancey and I don't know if the axle would reach:
Universal Cycles -- Sturmey-Archer S3X Fixed Gear 3 Speed Hubs - 130mm Spacing
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Old 11-03-14, 11:57 PM
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I found this picture of a SX3.



It looks there there are a ton of spacers on the NDS that could be removed to shift the hub and axle leftward. Then the question is if there is enough axle on the DS to go past the dropout and give the special nut enough threads to engage securely, especially noting this bike has horizontal dropouts. Perhaps if I get the 130 mm OLD version which I will guess is the same as the 120 mm OLD version but with a longer axle and more spacers. I realized that my bike very likely has 120 mm spacing, not 126 mm, because of its age ('61) and originally being a five speed. Then maybe I could squeeze a five speed freewheel on, maybe not.

(EDIT: 130 mm OLD version has a 175 mm axle. 120 mm OLD has a 164 mm axle. Hopefully there is an addition 10 mm of spacers in the former.)

I will do some measuring tomorrow.

Last edited by jyl; 11-04-14 at 12:08 AM.
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Old 11-04-14, 05:01 AM
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The Sturmey Archer S3X three speed fixed gear hub has a threaded driver that can accept a freewheel:

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Old 11-04-14, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wills View Post
Very old (1950's-ish) S-A hubs had a threaded driver, but these are very rare and prized.
True. And it's a b*tch getting the freewheel off the driver, as you need to disassemble the hub and clamp the driver in a vise. Sturmey Archer's own recommendation was to replace the threaded driver with a splined driver.

And there is also the equally rare Cyclo splined freewheel that mounts on a Sturmey Archer splined driver:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...gear-hubs.html

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Old 11-04-14, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
I found this picture of a SX3.



It looks there there are a ton of spacers on the NDS that could be removed to shift the hub and axle leftward. Then the question is if there is enough axle on the DS to go past the dropout and give the special nut enough threads to engage securely, especially noting this bike has horizontal dropouts. Perhaps if I get the 130 mm OLD version which I will guess is the same as the 120 mm OLD version but with a longer axle and more spacers. I realized that my bike very likely has 120 mm spacing, not 126 mm, because of its age ('61) and originally being a five speed. Then maybe I could squeeze a five speed freewheel on, maybe not.

(EDIT: 130 mm OLD version has a 175 mm axle. 120 mm OLD has a 164 mm axle. Hopefully there is an addition 10 mm of spacers in the former.)

I will do some measuring tomorrow.
I tried threading a 5 speed freewheel onto a 130mm S3X to see if it would work. Not enough axle protrusion I'm afraid.
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Old 11-04-14, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
I tried threading a 5 speed freewheel onto a 130mm S3X to see if it would work. Not enough axle protrusion I'm afraid.
How far short was it - how much additional axle would have been needed? If you recall.
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Old 11-04-14, 08:27 AM
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The CS-RF3 Sturmey Archer 3-speed IGH/cassette hub is also 135 OLD. Conceivably I could substitute thinner nuts to shave a few mm from the OLD. But I'd still be spreading the frame - ick, an irreversible change. The Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs have a choice of shifters that is more appealing for my project/harebrained idea, and don't have the clickbox protruding from the DS axle end.
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Old 11-04-14, 08:53 AM
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Reminds me of a guy on a steep hill at RAGBREI who casually reached down and pulled a cord --which fired up a well hidden two-stroke engine. He waved goodbye to everyone.

Forgive my negative-nancy comments but,
realistically, having extra weight and super lower gears probably won't be all that impressive. I've often noted fellow riders spinning away in super low gears on a hill as I cranked slowly past them (and some walkers were also walking slowly past them). I did a 600 mi tour on an IGH with deraillers and two front chainrings --to increase the range. Didn't like it at all.
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Old 11-04-14, 09:35 AM
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The Hybrid 3 speed + cassette driver are now from Sachs** & further developed by Sram . and S-A.. and there is the 9 spline driver for 2 cogs

used on Bromptons 2x3 hub and in their also 28hole, narrow axle 5 speed, making a 5x2 hub possible ..

in the late 50s I built up a 3 by 3, with a single piece of steel machined to have 3 cogs , replacing the 1 S-A AW3 cog & 2 spacers.

then went on to add a triple crank , it went on the same cottered BB axle.. my 1st touring bike.. 3 downtube shift levers ..

** the German Sachs uses a pull chain and a 7 speed cassette. they supplied the Brompton Mk3 bikes the 1st 3 by 2 hub .
with a 3 spline driver & 2 3/32nd cogs 13 & 15t the 15t is made with 3 teet shorter for shifting back & forth..

I've been using the 15t with a 3/32" Whipperman bushing chain on my AW-3, BSR.


BtW Jyl , remember any length on the right side is bored out hollow and then the pin that screws into the cross piece that makes the
gear combinations change is also involved..

the left end is solid And the gear is machined on it .
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sturmey-a...19198/?geoc=us

Sachs also made a 2 speed hub that used the same 6 Freewheel Cogs as the ARIS freewheels , but for the biggest one ,

that was dished unlike the flat ones on the freewheels.

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Old 11-04-14, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by dbg View Post
Reminds me of a guy on a steep hill at RAGBREI who casually reached down and pulled a cord --which fired up a well hidden two-stroke engine. He waved goodbye to everyone.

Forgive my negative-nancy comments but,
realistically, having extra weight and super lower gears probably won't be all that impressive. I've often noted fellow riders spinning away in super low gears on a hill as I cranked slowly past them (and some walkers were also walking slowly past them). I did a 600 mi tour on an IGH with deraillers and two front chainrings --to increase the range. Didn't like it at all.
The situation here is I have a vintage (1961 Bianchi) bike with 700C inch rims, 151 BCD Record crank with [EDIT] 50/45T, old Grand Sport short cage derailleur, 120 mm spacing, and 5 speed 14-26T freewheel. The lowest gear now is [EDIT] 47 GI (45x26). The crank will not accept a chainring smaller than 44T. The rear derailleur has very limited chain wrap and max cog capacity. I am thinking about how to get a wider gear range, suitable for randonneuring in hilly terrain, while changing the look of the bike as little as possible, which means keeping the original components as much as possible.

One option, that I am exploring, is to have the crank drilled for a third granny chainring and fit a long cage to the RD. I don't mind the look of a triple, but the Grand Sport RD looks rather odd with a long cage. Cost would be maybe $200 (crank mod, spacers, granny ring, long cage, longer spindle, etc). As always, budget matters. I could get a 37GI with, say, 36 x 26, with gear spacing same as currently.

The other option, discussed in this thread, is to do a hybrid drivetrain. No modification to crank or RD. Upgrades to 8 cogs. But it looks like the frame would have to be spread, a significant negative in my mind. Cost would be maybe $200 (IGH hub if using a CS-RF3, shifter, cassette, spreading). Not counting the wheel rebuild as I'll be doing that anyway (switching to 650B rims). I could get a 41GI (0.75 IGH ratio x 46 x 23T) with closer gear spacing than currently. Adds weight - the Sturmey hub might weigh 700 grams more than the existing Record rear hub, so 1.5 lb gain.

41GI or even 37GI are not impressively low gears, I guess.

Last edited by jyl; 11-05-14 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 11-04-14, 11:29 AM
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@jyl, why would you want to do this? It's so much heavier than a front derailleur and a chainring or two.
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Old 11-04-14, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
@jyl, why would you want to do this? It's so much heavier than a front derailleur and a chainring or two.
I was basically hoping to get the gearing range of



with the looks of



I know it is superficial and a first world problem to the extreme, but I really like the looks of close ratio freewheels and short cage derailleurs.
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Old 11-04-14, 01:46 PM
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there were Triple-izer chainrings made for 144bcd cranks too some thru Jim Merz (?) of Strawberry cycles in PDX.


I got a Gippiemme Triple in the 80s they used a 86mbcd granny gear mount in the forging and machining
not drilling ther the crankarms like <C> think Jim back in the day re machined regular Campag cranks ..

then there was the Ofmega/Avocet crank they drilled the arms with 10 holes for 2 different BCD.

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Old 11-04-14, 04:26 PM
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Okay, after adding up the thicknesses of the various lock nuts, serrated nuts and cones in the CS-RF3 parts diagram, I have more than halfway convinced myself that by thinning down the serrated nuts and locknuts (or getting the "skinny nuts" I've read about), eliminating one locknut that seems superfluous, and shortening the wrench flats on the right cone (or using a left cone on the right), it should be possible to reduce the CS-RF3's OLD from 135 mm to 123 mm. The right and left center to flange dimensions will get a little more offset (from 35.4 mm / 21.4 mm to 36.6 mm / 20.3 mm), but still not as bad as a modern 11 speed hub (which can be as offset as 38 mm / 17 mm). Anyway Velocity makes an offset semi-box section 650B rim (Synergy OC). The clearance from small cog to chainstay may become a problem, I might end up with just seven cogs and a spacer. The axle will need to be shortened, or replaced with a shorter one. The indicator mark will need to be shortened or replaced.

A 123 mm OLD will fit my 120 mm frame w/o spreading. Not optimally, but it will work. However, Sheldon Brown, RIP, says "An internal-gear hub or sealed-bearing hub is very likely to be damaged if the dropouts are not parallel." Why is this?

Last edited by jyl; 11-04-14 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 11-04-14, 04:51 PM
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think about it .... the bearing race will be too tight in part of it's rotation . every time it spins.. hundreds of times an hour.

Do the alignment check, PDX with a zillion shops you cant swing a cat and not hit one.

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Old 11-04-14, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
A 123 mm OLD will fit my 120 mm frame w/o spreading. Not optimally, but it will work. However, Sheldon Brown, RIP, says "An internal-gear hub or sealed-bearing hub is very likely to be damaged if the dropouts are not parallel." Why is this?
Non-parallel dropouts are bad on any bike, as they exert a bending force on the axle when you tighten the axle nuts or skewer Bending the axle (elastically - it springs back when you undo the nuts or skewer) on a regular hub is bad for the bearings and might break the axle eventually, but the hub will still work fairly well. An IGH generally has all manner of other parts aligned with the axle, and things will start to run out of alignment if the axle's not straight. That's really not good for them, and is likely to trash things in fairly short order.
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Old 11-04-14, 07:06 PM
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Do you guys think squeezing a 123 mm OLD IGH in a 120 mm frame, hypothetically, would be destructive to the hub? I'm not sure what degree of non-parallelism can, or cannot, be tolerated.
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Old 11-04-14, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
@jyl, why would you want to do this? It's so much heavier than a front derailleur and a chainring or two.
Because this: Steep Hill Ride » TV » OPB and 2014 RondePDX aka De Ronde Van West Portlandia - Portland, OR
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Old 11-05-14, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
Do you guys think squeezing a 123 mm OLD IGH in a 120 mm frame, hypothetically, would be destructive to the hub? I'm not sure what degree of non-parallelism can, or cannot, be tolerated.
To me, it seems the distortion would be small and tolerable. You could eliminate it, though, by spreading the frame and then re-parallel-izing the dropouts.
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Old 11-05-14, 04:26 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
Okay, after adding up the thicknesses of the various lock nuts, serrated nuts and cones in the CS-RF3 parts diagram, I have more than halfway convinced myself that by thinning down the serrated nuts and locknuts (or getting the "skinny nuts" I've read about), eliminating one locknut that seems superfluous, and shortening the wrench flats on the right cone (or using a left cone on the right), it should be possible to reduce the CS-RF3's OLD from 135 mm to 123 mm.
Which locknut are you thinking of removing? I doubt it's completely superfluous, why would the manufacturer waste money putting a part that's not necessary on the hub?

I'm also not 100% sure SA hub cones are interchangeable left-to-right, but that would be relatively easy to confirm by actually looking at a pair of them.
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Old 11-05-14, 06:28 AM
  #25  
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In https://www.sturmey-archer.com/userfi...t-20120103.pdf

I am hoping, naively maybe, that
#17 serrated nut can be thinned
#18 lock nut can be thinned and one eliminated
#29 right cone can be replaced by a #19 , or thinned
#30 serrated nut can be thinned
(The last two being subject to the length of the freehub body).

I am also hoping that
#20 axle comes in a shorter version, or can be cut shorter
#22 indicator comes in different lengths to match the #20
#31 guide nut comes in a deeper version, or I can put a spacer under it

All this is just paper pushing, I've never had a Sturmey Archer hub before.
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