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Building Asymmetric Rim

Old 11-05-14, 09:39 PM
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jyl
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Building Asymmetric Rim

I am considering an asymmetric rim (Velocity Synergy OC) for a rear wheel build. I have never built or owned one before. Are there any downsides? Is there a particular spoke length calculator that is more accurate with asymmetric rim? Will the DS and NDS spoke tensions be close enough that there is no advantage to using thinner spokes on the NDS? The CTF will be something like 35 mm left 20 mm right (roughly) and it will be a 650B rim.
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Old 11-05-14, 09:53 PM
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Other than some quality issues with specific rims (applies to both symmetric and asymmetric rims) there's no reason not to use an asymmetric to reduce the effects of hub asymmetry.

They build the same as any rim so no sweat there. As far as the spoke length calculation goes, the offset factors into the CTF distance, because you're actually looking for the HTF (spoke hole, to flange) distance. It isn't critical because CTF errors only affect spoke length to the extent of 1mm for every 10mm of CTF error.

If you want to be a purist, you can add/subtract the offset distance to the center of the rim form the respective CTF specs to get the HTF and use that in your spoke calculator.
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Old 11-06-14, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
Will the DS and NDS spoke tensions be close enough that there is no advantage to using thinner spokes on the NDS?
Depends on how even you want it.
The offset available through a regular width road-type rim isn't that much, and won't buy you more than a few% in tension imbalance reduction.
If you weren't overly troubled by NDS spokes breaking before, then an OC rim might be enough to make you entirely trouble-free.
If you were badly plagued before, it's unlikely that the OC rim will cure it all.
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Old 11-06-14, 09:52 AM
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I've built a couple wheels using Synergy OCs. The offset, and change in bracing angle is so small that any attempt to equalize tension is insignicant. Downside? None really except it looks funny and some will notice and expect you to explain why.

As FB mentioned- "if you want to be a purist"... IIRC the offset is 4mm, so you subtract 4 from the left flange, and add 4 to the right FTC measurement. When you round out your spoke length (up or down) there will be very little difference in spoke length. Based on available lengths you'll probably end up using the same spoke length. With the OC you might round up, where you might round down for a centered rim. It depends on your ability to measure things and select the proper length based on your experiences with the spoke length calculations you use.

Synergy OC? I see Velocity no longer offers it on their website. I've heard of some cracking issues, but have never seen it. Maybe due to the larger hole (to accommodate eyelets) being close to the rim edge? I prefer non-eyeleted rims, so I might be tempted (if I ever did offset again) to try the A-23. I think OC is overated.
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Old 11-06-14, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by reddog3 View Post
Synergy OC? I see Velocity no longer offers it on their website.
Oh?
Velocity - Rims, Touring, 700c, Synergy O/C

Two of my 4 bikes have the Synergy OC;
I *love* them!
They make a huge improvement in NDS tension, especially on the one with Campy 10s.
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Old 11-06-14, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by reddog3 View Post
I've built a couple wheels using Synergy OCs. The offset, and change in bracing angle is so small that any attempt to equalize tension is insignicant. Downside? None really except it looks funny and some will notice and expect you to explain why.

As FB mentioned- "if you want to be a purist"... IIRC the offset is 4mm, so you subtract 4 from the left flange, and add 4 to the right FTC measurement. When you round out your spoke length (up or down) there will be very little difference in spoke length. Based on available lengths you'll probably end up using the same spoke length. With the OC you might round up, where you might round down for a centered rim. It depends on your ability to measure things and select the proper length based on your experiences with the spoke length calculations you use.

Synergy OC? I see Velocity no longer offers it on their website. I've heard of some cracking issues, but have never seen it. Maybe due to the larger hole (to accommodate eyelets) being close to the rim edge? I prefer non-eyeleted rims, so I might be tempted (if I ever did offset again) to try the A-23. I think OC is overated.
I disagree. The Velocity rims (if still available) feature 4 mm of offset which is quite substantial. With a hub that isn't terribly unbalanced from DS to NDS like an American Classic Road rear, that can bring the tensions on the two sides almost even. With a really unbalanced hub like the Bitex ones, it can make the difference between an acceptable build with say 70 kgf tension on the NDS and one with only 50 kgf. That is an important difference.
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Old 11-06-14, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
I disagree. The Velocity rims (if still available) feature 4 mm of offset which is quite substantial. ...
Rather than debate what is or isn't significant or whether it matters, I'll simply give you the basic math.

Assuming a rim is drilled in a straight line down the middle, the tension ratio is the inverse of the R/L CTF distance in the hub. For example, if a hub's CTFs are 35/20 then the tension on the left flange will be 20/35ths or 4/7th or 57% of the tension of the right. (This isn't super precise of subtle factors but it's close enough to work with.

Rim offset, either zigzag or all to the left will change the tension ratios by increasing or decreasing the effective CTF distance.

2 examples of the same 35/20 hub.

zigzag 2mm either side of center the effective CTFs would change to 33/18 and the tension ratio would be 18:33 or left = 54% of right, so zig zag drilling actually makes things worse.

Offset 4mm to one side of center the effective CTFs would change ro 31/24 and the tension ratio would be improved to 24:31 or L= 77% right which isn't equal, but is a decent improvement.

So those are the numbers. What anyone does with them is up to them based on their own judgement.
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Old 11-06-14, 12:03 PM
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Here are two shots of the spocalc.xls I used when I built my Campy/Synergy wheels.
The first one is the actual file, (with 4mm offset).
In the second, I set the offset to zero.
Note the values in the last column on the right
Attached Images
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synergy-campy-oc.jpg (57.6 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg
synergy-campy-non-oc.jpg (58.1 KB, 22 views)
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Old 11-06-14, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
Here are two shots of the spocalc.xls I used when I built my Campy/Synergy wheels.
The first one is the actual file, (with 4mm offset).
In the second, I set the offset to zero.
Note the values in the last column on the right
Basically confirms my earlier post.

Side note. I'm always intrigued (for lack of a better word) by folks who calculate or discuss the bracing angle. Because what matters isn't the angle, but the sine of the angle, which just happens to be (drum roll here) the CTF (after allowing for rim offsets) divided by the spoke's length. So we can spare ourselves of the trig because the wheel doesn't understand trig anyway.
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Old 11-06-14, 01:03 PM
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I usd the same rim in 559mm with the cheap Shimano FH-RM30 hub, 36 hole. About 132mm spacing.
My NDS tension is 85% of DS vs 63% for the non offset.
Spoke lengths each changed by "about" .4mm, which "might" make a difference when rounding up or down.
I was going to use a 13/14 butted DS and 14/15 DB NDS spoke.
I couldn't get the 13/14 in silver and a timely fashion, so i went straight 14 on the DS.
Had I known ahead of time about the 13/14 spoke, I probably would have just went to 14/15 DB both sides since 85% is pretty close.
On a different hub, like in the above Spokecalc sample, I'd still go thinner on the NDS.

With you 35 & 20 CTF's you're looking at 57 & 77%, 0 & 4mm offset.
My typical builds use 14/15DB DS & 15/16 DB NDS.
Cross sectional area between the 2 is 79%.

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Old 11-06-14, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Basically confirms my earlier post.

Side note. I'm always intrigued (for lack of a better word) by folks who calculate or discuss the bracing angle. Because what matters isn't the angle, but the sine of the angle, which just happens to be (drum roll here) the CTF (after allowing for rim offsets) divided by the spoke's length. So we can spare ourselves of the trig because the wheel doesn't understand trig anyway.
The funny thing is that a math student today would say you haven't spared yourself of the trig, you have actually embraced it. These days understanding that that quotient is the sine of the angle made by those members is what trig is all about, not tables of numbers. Put another way to a modern math student, the wheel doesn't have to understand the trig; it is the trig.
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Old 11-06-14, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by reddog3 View Post
I've heard of some cracking issues, but have never seen it. Maybe due to the larger hole (to accommodate eyelets) being close to the rim edge? ...I think OC is overated.
Only issues I had with Synergy rims -- one OC, one symmetric -- was eyelets pulling out while building the rim. On both, the eyelets did not appear to be seated properly at the spoke holes adjacent to the seam, and Velocity was extremely quick to correct the issue with warranty replacements. Otherwise, Synergy rims which built up properly have been bomb-proof.

Agree: OC/asymmetric rims are overrated.
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Old 11-06-14, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
The funny thing is that a math student today would say you haven't spared yourself of the trig, you have actually embraced it. ...
Maybe, but the flip side is that once you decide not to bother with the angle, you don't need to use trig to calculate it, or to work back to the sine of it.

By understanding the simple GEOMETRY of the problem, you don't have to pass TRIG to collect your $200.00.
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Old 11-06-14, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Maybe, but the flip side is that once you decide not to bother with the angle, you don't need to use trig to calculate it, or to work back to the sine of it.

By understanding the simple GEOMETRY of the problem, you don't have to pass TRIG to collect your $200.00.
Umm, I think we are in danger of having a semantic argument, and nobody like those. To me what you are calling geometry is in fact trigonometry. In my schooling all the relationships that make the CTF divided by the spoke length the average relative force determinant on each side of the wheel are trigonometric concepts. Perhaps a difference of where we went to school. Dunno.
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Old 11-06-14, 05:34 PM
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I built a Velocity aerohead rear offset and used Velocity hubs and the rear spokes were both 292 in length for a 32 hole 3x rim. It made a nice wheel and I am totally on board with the off set rear wheels. If you can make the rim that way and get better tension balance then why not? My understanding is the tooling required to change to have off set rims is high. At this point I would love to build a DT swiss 440 rim that has the o/c option.
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Old 11-06-14, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by deacon mark View Post
I built a Velocity aerohead rear offset and used Velocity hubs and the rear spokes were both 292 in length for a 32 hole 3x rim. It made a nice wheel and I am totally on board with the off set rear wheels. If you can make the rim that way and get better tension balance then why not? My understanding is the tooling required to change to have off set rims is high. At this point I would love to build a DT swiss 440 rim that has the o/c option.
Minor loss of stiffness, but worth it IMO.
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Old 11-06-14, 07:57 PM
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Thanks for all the responses and information. Really interesting.

I'm leaning toward trying the Synergy OC. There doesn't seem to be a significant downside, and there seem to be some upsides.

I like this rim because it won't look too out of place on a vintage bike.
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Old 11-06-14, 08:07 PM
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Vintage?

Why didn't you say so in the OP?

That changes EVERYTHING!!!!!!!
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Old 11-06-14, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Vintage?

Why didn't you say so in the OP?

That changes EVERYTHING!!!!!!!
Indeed;
That calls for *polished* Synergy rims.
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Old 11-06-14, 09:27 PM
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I sort of backed into rebuilding an asymmetric wheel when I bought a 2000 LeMonde that the prior owner had outfitted with a Cane Creek Volos wheelset. When the rear rim eventually cracked, I was sufficiently fascinated by the quirks (and spin weight) of this configuration to order a Velocity Aerohead OC rim and put it back together the same way. The only difference is that Velocity doesn't make a rim anymore to fit straight-pull spoke nipples, but I found that Cane Creek sells an adapter bushing which resolves that issue. I'm not sure how much the OC geometry equalizes spoke tension compared to symmetrical, but it can't hurt.
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Old 11-06-14, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Vintage?

Why didn't you say so in the OP?

That changes EVERYTHING!!!!!!!
Sorry! 1961 Bianchi for a randonneur conversion. The one I've been asking about in "IGH for derailleur bike ".

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Old 11-06-14, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
Sorry! 1961 Bianchi for a randonneur conversion. The one I've been asking about in "IGH for derailleur bike ".
Not only vintage, but possibly a classic.

It just gets worser and worser. Forget everything you've read, find yourself a 50 year old Nisi rim, and build it with non-stainless 15/16g spokes. Anything else is criminal.

Or just do whatever you think will work for you.
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Old 11-06-14, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jyl View Post
Sorry! 1961 Bianchi for a randonneur conversion. The one I've been asking about in "IGH for derailleur bike ".
IGH should have more symmetrical CTF offsets.
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Old 11-06-14, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
IGH should have more symmetrical CTF offsets.
It is an IGH that takes a freehub so it is asymmetric. I need to narrow the IGH to fit it in the narrow dropout spacing. The NDS is easier to narrow than the DS. That will make the hub more asymmetric. Enough that I started thinking about an asymmetric rim.
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Old 11-06-14, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Not only vintage, but possibly a classic.

It just gets worser and worser. Forget everything you've read, find yourself a 50 year old Nisi rim, and build it with non-stainless 15/16g spokes. Anything else is criminal.

Or just do whatever you think will work for you.
I think it may have the original rims, or a period replacement. Did Rigida make alloy rims in 1961? But they are 700C and I want 650B.
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