live_dont_exist

Hi All,
I was working on servicing the hub of my front wheel this weekend and got that sorted out thanks to a lot of help out here. In the process of fixing that though, I have another problem. My brakes seem to be sticking to the rim of the wheel.

My bike is a Torker Alpental (2012 I think). I use standard V brakes. I'll try and post pictures as cny-bikeman suggested when I get home tonight.

The problem is as follows:
- Service entire hub. Put back together. Spin wheel. All good.
- Decide to mount on wheel now. Put quick release back on. Mount on wheel.
- Reattach V brakes. Spin wheel. Fail.
- Loosen the brake cable a little. Its better but the wheel seems too far from 1 side and too close to the other.
- I try and adjust and center the brake pads a little to fix this but that doesn't work too well either.
- More playing with the brake cable and I finally get it equidistant from both sides.
- Squeeze the caliper? (steel arm which the brake pads fit into) and see if they spring back. One side just seems to stick and not spring back at all.

I was reading the advice on this thread - https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...ra-st3500.html

Is that advice valid here too? I will try and post pictures after I get home tonight. Any tips before that would be great.

Thanks
Arvind

Retro Grouch 

How did the brakes work before you fixed the wheel?

The first thing that I would do would be to check to make sure everything was in the default mode. Make sure the wheel axle is seated in the dropouts. Check the alignment of the brake pads relative to the rim. If your brake was OK previously, I'd make sure all of these things were right before I started fooling with brake adjustments.

cny-bikeman

Logic time, here. If you squeeze the caliper and one side does not come back out, but the other does the problem is not with the lever or cable. In most cases it will be the caliper itself. Either the pivot on that side is binding or the centering is off. Remove the wheel and operate the brake. Does the problem side seem to move in and back again? If so then it's not really sticking, just off-center. Remount wheel with the rim centered between both seat and chain stays and re-check centering.There will be a screw down near the pivot that allows you to adjust relative spring tension. Tighten it to move the problem side away from the rim or loosen the other side. If not quite right repeat, but no need to remove the wheel again.

If that's not the problem try to operate only that arm with your hand, but make sure the cable housing leading to it has a nice gradual curve, not stressed straight or looped way up. If the arm really goes in toward the rim and does not come back out then there's likely a problem with that arm's pivot. It's possible to overtighten the hex bolt for the pivot and cause it to bind.

fietsbob

The spring tension may be off because 1 spring came loose.

Andrew R Stewart 

If I read the Op's story right all was well (with the brakes and the wheel being centered) before the hub work. But now the wheel is off center. So the first thing I'd look at is whether the axle spacers or lock nuts got switched from one side to the other. This could account for the off center wheel and the off center wheel could explain the brake problem.

Although not likely a problem in this case another reason for one pad to continue sticking, especially when the wheel isn't turning, is a pad which has worn enough and developed a ridge along the bottom edge. this ridge can and does "hook onto" the rim trapping the pad there. Often with rim rotation this "hooking on" won't remain and the pad will release. Solution is to sand the ridge off or replace the pads. Andy.

live_dont_exist

Thank you all very much for your helpful tips. Sorry I'm late getting back, didn't get time to work on the bike for the last couple of days. I looked at all the suggestions offered.

Just before I posted, I'd done a lot of tweaking with the brakes so it does appear to be working for now. But I'm far from happy with the situation. I'l explain more in my individual replies below.

retrogrouch: Tried taking the wheel off and carefully reseating the axle - it looks okay. Both brake pads when pressed hit the rim almost completely - nothing on the tyre or hitting any of the spokes.

cny-bikeman: So I squeezed both sides with the wheel and the brakes work, as mentioned above. And it springs back "enough" so I can continue riding after releasing the brakes. Then though, I took the wheel off and pressed the brake arms with hand. One of them seems to have some tension in it. As in, I press it..it goes in and I can feel it wanting to spring back...the other arm just feels limp with nothing at all (the one with the holder into which the noodle? goes) ...no tension at all. And the other thing is that I seem to be able to just shake the caliper around its pivots. Maybe something is not tight enough.

fietsbob: As mentioned above, one of the arms just limply goes in or out when I push it. Maybe a spring is dead as you say?

Andrew R Stewart: I didn't take off the locknut etc from one side *at all*. So unless I've put them on back wrong this seems unlikely. And I think I put them on right. It is possible the pads are worn out too - I will check these and post a pic of them later if nothing else works. I don't want to take them off unless I have to - its such a pain putting them back on

All: Please have a look at the pictures I took. Hopefully they explain a bit more too. Thank you for your help.

Andrew R Stewart 

My mistake in my first reply. I thought that the wheel was a rear which often has different sized spacers and/or lock nuts on either side. Front wheels tend to be symmetrical. from the OP's newest post I would speculate that the brake arm springs are not evenly tensioned, for what ever reasons. Although if one arm pivot has more friction then the other the result often is the same as uneven springs. As to the addition of photos... Only one has the focus to see any detail but it isn't of a view that helps.

I would base line the entire brake assembly. this means taking one side off the pivot post at a time and cleaning, lubing and reinstalling the assembly. This both is just good maintenance as well as teaches the OP how things work. Only do one side at a time in case one get's "lost" and has to look at the other side for guidance. sand down the pads surface to remove any aged/glazed crust and to even out the pad's flatness. Put a drop of lube on the pad's threads and reinstall. Reposition the pads. Pull the casing back from the metal noodle and drip some lube into the tube. Now you should have well moving arms and well set pad positioning. Now one can see, without other factors, if the springs are even. Springs usually have some adjustment for their tension either with a tiny screw, choices of holes in the pivot boss's base to place the fixed pin/spring end into or even just bending the straight section of the spring a bit. getting even arm release is often a mix of these options.

Finally if you screw up replacement brakes aren't very costly. Shops often have a useable take off for less then new. Andy.

fietsbob

BEND a curve in the straight spring on the weak side, to increase its force, if screwing in the little screw near the pivot is ineffective.

cny-bikeman

As I noted you can usually adjust the spring tension on each arm. Tighten the screw on the arm that has poor tension - if that does not work and the arm moves easily there's something wrong with the spring.

live_dont_exist

Thank you all for your replies.

cny-bikeman: I tried playing with the screw (one which a flat screwdriver goes into, not the one which an allen key goes into) but even completely taking the screw out seems to make no difference.

fietsbob: Yes maybe, but I don't know how. I guess I will have to open it up?

Andrew: Yes that sounds great. I'd love to be able to put the assembly together completely and will do this eventually.

The other news is that the front wheel brakes seem totally screwed now after all my playing with it. The cable doesn't stick in the barrel nut on the handlebar and keeps jumping out no matter what I do. Adjusting the cable length either causes the wheel to get totally stuck or the brakes not to work. The steel bit near the noodle keeps coming out. And worst of all... pressing the brake lever doesn't pull the cable at all...just causes the cable to jump out of the barrel nut.

I'd had this problem before and it seemed fixed after I replaced the brake cable as on an earlier thread. But now the problem is back. I think I am putting the bike on a bus and heading off to the LBS, getting some advice and parts and then coming back here to tell you guys how I got along.

I just wanted to reply to all of you before I headed out. Thanks

SparkPlug

Agree with the disassembly/reassembly and do it one at a time or take notes as to how things fell to pieces. Have a look at Sheldon Brown,

Adjusting Direct-pull Cantilever Bicycle Brakes ("V-Brakes ®")

for the rhyme and reason of the things.

Sanity check required.

Whilst I'm sticking my oar in realise I have only ever played with these things once. For the pair I dealt with it turned out that the plastic housing/bush into which the spring was located had three holes to set the general tension. In my case on one side the bush had split which was the cause of poor and/or uneven tension. That needed new bits. Check yours are not similarly split.

Once you have got them off pull them to bits, including the adjustment screws, and put them back together again with a bit of grease where it seems logical to put grease. That will be a brass tube that fits the centre of the plastic bit. Check that it is not worn or scoured. It should be possible to locate the spigot<?> of the spring in the required hole, use the same hole both sides, without locating its arm in the main arm of the brake. Leave out the adjustment screws.

Clean up the mounts on the frame and check they are not worn or scoured. Put on a bit of grease and reassemble. The aforementioned brass tube prevents you from affecting the rotation of the brake. With the springs free you can then hold the arm in order to press the brake pads against the rim and position them properly before tightening them up without grunting against the force of the springs. You might wish to dab a bit of grease on the brake 'gimble washer thing',

Then you do your noodle and boot up with the cable free. Assuming it has not dropped out and still works wind the adjuster on the brake lever fully in. Depending on how true you think your wheel is press one brake pad against the rim and position the other slightly off the rim, within your guesstimate of trueness, and tighten the cable clamp. Then lever the springs back into position on the arms. That's either a flat bladed screwdriver or a pair of snipe nosed pliers...

At this point, like as not, it will be wrong as a result of the springs not being very well matched. Put the adjustment screws back in, with the usual bit of grease. You'll have to screw them in a bit before they take effect so do the one on the brake closest to the rim until you notice it is moving way. Then stop and put the other one in until things start moving back. Then tighten the one on the brake that is closest to the rim until they are both centred either side of it.

Be warned. I have just made the above up on the basis of limited experience of one set of brakes, reading Sheldon and probably illogical lateral thinking.

As a just in case check the 'quality' of the hardware around where the cable is finally tightened and locked. In particular look for sharp edges and make sure any washers are the right way around. It looks like your lever arms are 'moulded' but the cheap<er> stuff tends to be stamped steel which will cut the cable. That will also happen if you get the washer the wrong way around. Those will also be stamped and one side will have smooth curves whilst the other will have sharp edges.

Ooops. You have been and gone.

live_dont_exist

Thank you very much sparkplug. I will consider all your advice, read a lot and give this a shot . The LBS here (who is awesome btw) said that it looks okay overall, but one side seems more corroded than the other and I should (like you said) open it all up.. clean it and put it back together.

I will do all this .. this weekend..hopefully with positive results.

SparkPlug

Perseverance works



One thing in your #10 post on this thread you mention,

Which you suggest 'got fixed' previously when you replaced the cable. I'm guessing the 'barrel nut' is the adjuster on the brake lever. It is possible that having released tension in the cable its nipple has popped out of the retaining hole in the brake lever itself so in effect it is no longer attached. You might remember swearing a bit last time you fitted a new cable as you fiddled about getting the nipple to locate properly.. Just a thought.

As another thought it might be worth buying a new cable and pair of end crimps, the little sleeves that go on the cut end to stop it fraying. Having said as much you do need the right tool to cut and crimp them. With all the adjustment that has gone on your present cable looks to have suffered multiple flattening at the brake fixing point and it is possible that it might give up the ghost and start fraying.

Whilst you are doing the front brakes you may as well have a look at the rear ones as well. Call me a tinkerer. The, not so cunning, plan is that you only need one new cable for the rear brake. You re-use the old rear brake cable on the front brake.... or buy two.

One other concern would be the 'barrel nut adjuster' at the brake. I do not know about the quality of your bike but everything I have seen that is modern, and cheap, comes with resin moulded brake housings and really poor quality adjusters made out of something that might be called metal. The resin thread strips and the metal is truly misshapen and generally horrible. Yours may be better quality but if they are not you may as well just glue them in place and accept you will have no adjustment.

live_dont_exist

Thanks sparkplug. So the update basically is the following:

- Took off front wheel and disengaged V brakes.
- Took off brake pad on Side 1 and kept screws together
- Used Allen wrench and removed nut that attaches brake arm/caliper? to the bike fork
- Used flat screwdriver and took off brake adjuster screw
- Now the arm didn't immediately come off and I had to sort of keep moving it side to side to loosen it and it eventually slid off
- Cleant all parts, greased screws and contact points, put it back on.
- Loosely attached brake pad too, did not tighten

Now I thought I'd do it for the other side. I got the screws off (Till step 4 above) but all the pulling and yanking doesn't get the arm itself off . So that's where things are.

Yes, I'd also thought it makes sense to do the back wheel as well. Its just a pain coz of the nuts (no quick release), but I'll get there once this is done.

Have attached some pics on the state of various parts. Not sure if the pic clarity is great but maybe someone can tell me something . A couple of views are of the brake arm that is stuck, 1 is showing the barrel nut (yes the nut on the brake lever) and 1 is the front brake cable.

I'll consider buying a wire cutter, cutting that wire last time was an utter pain...did it with bare hands twisting and twisting till every strand broke.

Andrew R Stewart 

A needle nose pliers with a good cutter works well for cable cutting. I have brought a piece of cable to Sears with me and gone through a few pliers till the one with the best cutters was found. Andy.

SparkPlug

Hmm. Given a bit of leverage was required to get the first arm off it sounds like the years have taken its toll and the magic grease had evaporated. Another possibility is that the lug had become slightly rusty and stiffened things up between itself and the brass tube, rust occupies a greater volume than steel. The last one is that water ingress from rain had carried in carbonates and things had got furred up, rather like a kettle does. Hopefully now it is cleaned up, re-lubricated and put back together things are rotationally smooth and free.

What condition was the lug, tube and brake parts in on the one you got off in terms of rust or other crud?

As for the stuck one presumably it still rotates which would suggest it is not the arm or plastic bit that are frozen to the brass tube but rather the brass tube is frozen to the lug. Again I've only looked at one of these once before.. It is possible that the brass tube has a retaining lip on one end. You might wish to check on the brake that you have completed to see if this is the case and if so it would seem that the lip, if it exists should face outwards away from the frame. The ones I dealt with were just a plain tube.

Aside from that there is the possibility that the outermost end of the brass tube has been flared by over-tightening of the retaining allen bolt so it is preventing you from removing the arm. That assumes the brass tube is frozen on the lug by rust or some other contaminant. The lever might rotate meaning you cannot get any purchase on the tube and break it free. Could be time to resort to penetrating fluid.. something like WD40 but really something like Plus Gas, don't know what the US equivalent/favourite would be. Squirt some on and leave it for a couple of hours or overnight and then try again.

Edit.... In fact looking more closely at your pictures it does seem that there is a flange/lip on the brass tube on your brakes. Again try the penetrating fluid. Unfortunately it does not look like you can get any purchase on that lip but if you can try to rotate the tube rather than the brake.

SparkPlug

Possibly but those tend to crush the cable and ultimately become blunt unless I am thinking incorrectly about the cutter profile. I guess they will be cheaper than the 'real deal'...

Park Tool CN 10 Professional Bike Cable Cutter w Crimper | eBay

or

New Icetoolz Pro Bike Shop Cable Spoke Cutter Tool Model 67A3 Ice Toolz | eBay

The blades slice rather than crush.

I cannot comment about the relative quality but might guess the Park Tools version is better. I have the second one which does the job for outers, inners and spokes. Both also have crimping sections and the IceToolz version includes a part that cleans up cut cable outer ends. The pin in mine dropped out so its back to using a pen tip.

It is an expense but in the short term is worth it for the amount of hassle it saves and that continues in the long run when it is time to do the job again.

live_dont_exist

Thanks guys. I'll look at getting a good (and cheap ) cutter soon.

Back to the brakes though, so the tube I assume is the one that;s stuck to the fork? But how would that rotate? That seemed totally firm on the first arm.

That leaves the shiny silver arm, which is stuck to a black plastic piece. Both of those came off together on the first arm - I don't think I could separate them at all.

It seemed okay though condition wise - the guy at the LBS sprayed some kind of antirust lube? on it... which meant that as I was wiping it..wet rust kept coming off. But I don't know..if the metal and plastic should come apart too? If yes...then I need to redo the first arm. Otherwise though it didn't look too bad...just a bit dry but that was to be expected I guess.

For lube I only have some TriFlow and a can of WHite Lightning...will either of those do instead? Or do I need to buy this WD40 thing? I just dont want to buy too much and stock it... considering I ride somewhere between 20 and 30 miles a week on average.

Thanks

SparkPlug

Someone will jump in if I get this wrong.. Here's a picture,



I might have to add to that. I'm just remembering things myself.

The forks will, or they did on mine, have a piece of metal on them with three holes. Your spring at its coiled end will have a spigot, possible wrong term, sticking out that passes through a hole through the plastic bush which you locate into one of the holes, nominally use the same one each side. The coiled end will locate into a recess in the plastic bush. Once assembled that fixes the plastic bush in place. It does not rotate. The adjustment screw goes into the plastic bush and presses against the spigot to adjust tension.

The brake arm fits flush against the plastic bush and is free to rotate with the spring arm clipping into its body to provide the restoring force. It should be possible to separate those three parts; plastic bush, spring and arm. Give things a clean out and re-grease them.

The sleeve provides a bearing surface for the arm to rotate around and also prevents you tightening the bolt too much such that the arm would not rotate itself. I've included a flange on the sleeve. That appears to be what is preventing you from removing the other brake assembly.

My guess is that what has happened is that there is corrosion, or some other muck, between the lug and the sleeve and it is this what is preventing you from removing things. The sleeve does not rotate relative to the lug once the assembly is bolted together but if it is stuck on as a result of corrosion then in order to 'break' the corrosion your best chance is to rotate it.

That means a soak in penetrating fluid. It's a very light low viscosity oil that gets in the nooks and crannies.

A quick Google suggests your Tri-Flow might be the closest. White Lightning is an evil tasting 7.5% By Volume cider that... oh, looks like a Chain Lubricant but we will not go there. I suppose ultimately it depends on 'cheapness by volume' or just something you already have that will get the job done.

To me I'd rather get a tin of Plus Gas because like as not a similar problem will rear its ugly head in the future both here and elsewhere. It's not something you splash about or use for general lubrication. It is specifically for releasing tight and rusty parts. Just a couple of drops and leave it to do the job. Try it with the Tri-Flow though and be patient.. a few drops at the interface and leave it to get to work. You might need another application.

It almost looks like there is enough of a lip on the sleeve exposed to gain some purchase with a pair of pliers and rotate it to break the corrosion.

Andrew R Stewart 

The arm and the spring assembly with it's plastic cover are pressed together and can separate with a bit of force. If they do come apart don't fret but DO take note of the relationships each has WRT each other. To make sure all goes back in the same orientation. (This is why you do one side at a time BYW). As to lubes you have, ditch that White Lighting for any wet work. It's great when you're dry and able to reapply frequently. But in sloppy and wet conditions it doesn't hold up well. Triflow will coat better and last longer but a thicker lube even more so. For the brake pivot I would use a grease if possible. If you came into the shop and asked I'd give you a dollop (that's a technical term, look it up) for free.

My comment about pliers for cable cutting cables was driven by the cost concerns. It's best to get tools that have more then one purpose if possible when on a budget. If the cost isn't an issue by all means get a set of proper cable/casing cutters and don't use them for anything else, AT ALL. Andy.

cny-bikeman

I would strongly recommend you get some in-person help - bike co-op, knowledgeable friend, or just have a bike shop fix the problem. You have done several things that make no logical sense or are contrary to what's been recommended to you. An example is removing the brake tension screw after I told you to try tightening it. Of course taking it out will not help the problem.

Also, the suggestions oriented toward the pivot make no sense if you are accurate in saying the pivot moves easily but you feel no spring tension. If true the problem has to be related to the spring - no other option. However, if you are not correct and are not detecting spring tension because the pivot is too tight then there is one I mentioned before: "It's possible to overtighten the hex bolt for the pivot and cause it (the pivot) to bind." At least when I was an active mechanic cantilever studs had a brass bushing that fit over them as a bearing surface. If one tightened the bolt too much the bushing would compress and expand to a larger diameter, causing the pivot to bind. Something similar may be going on with your brakes.

Again, because there are several possibilities and because it's hard to ascertain how accurately you are describing the problem or following suggestions I suggest in-person help to get this addressed - it should be no more than a 5 minute process to diagnose, perhaps a bit longer to fix. AT this point things seem to be degrading to multiple guesses about how to fix the issue.

As for the cable cutter issue, before the Park tool was available what was widely used were 7" diagonal cutting pliers, usually Craftsman. They were useful for cutting both cable and housing. I had mine for over 10 years before I broke down and got a free replacement.

p.s. I decided to check past posts for clues to your location. It appears you live in or near BOSTON! Why on earth have you not explored this significant resources you have there??

SparkPlug

I would not want to go crossed purposes but,

Plusgas 809-10 Plusgas Tin 250ml - Lubricating Sprays & Oils | eBay

I do not know what the US equivalent would be and it is probably my fault for not using the right term vis dismantling. Of course in this case it might be overkill given the nature of the offending joint. However, and I am perhaps still talking UK Equivalents, when it comes to things like frozen bottom bracket cups and pedals something like WD-40 just does not cut the mustard whereas Plus Gas A is your saviour.

Elsewhere, avoiding the possible discussion of esoterica, a tub of lithium grease is good to go in the majority of cases.

Point taken about tool cost and I am not certain how labour stacks up in the US but I'd take a guess that, subtracting parts, the right tool for the job would pay for itself having done the job twice. It is also very rewarding to use something designed to do the job..

I used to use my teeth but they no longer mesh together correctly and I might need dentures.



Agree on not using it for anything else AT All and do not lend it to anyone else, let them see it or leave it around because it will get blunted and turned to rust before mysteriously disappearing.

On the plus side given it cuts outers and cables and crimps terminating ferrules on outers and cables when it is time to do things completely.. including replacement of the outers then you are good to go.

live_dont_exist

Thanks all for your feedback. So I haven't yet bought that cutter but I eventually will..next time I need to cut. In the meantime, the brakes saga reached an uneasy ending yesterday - well kinda. Here's the story:

- The first arm was already off if you guys remember and I was stuck on the 2nd arm.
- Eventually I managed to use an adjustable wrench and rotate/yank/pull it off. Yay.
- Clean, shine, grease, screw back.
- Tighten both sides. Adjust brake pads. Adjust cable.

In short, I'd disassembled the entire brake as suggested earlier and learnt how it looks inside. So that in itself is a *win* for me. But now everything was clean, no rust, no dirt no nothing...but still no tension. Cable jumps out

So I decide I'm done with this and ride it to the LBS with just the back brakes working..kinda. But... as it turns out, there was that spring... which seemed very very loose anyway (and which I didn't know was a spring btw - thin stick of metal) which broke off while I was taking the brake off. So the LBS said that's it...get a new brake - spring's gone and you can't replace it. 18$.

Oh well. I'll put the new brakes on sometime and it'll hopefully all be well. Its just sad I couldn't get it to work by myself...but anyway I learnt a bunch of things.

Will revisit this thread and read the detailed mechanics posted too.

Thanks all again.

p.s: cny-bikeman: Yes totally...I *could* just go get it fixed ... but just wanted to play around and see if I could get it to work by myself. That's all. Thanks for your help.

Paramount1973 

For moderate duty, these cutters are more than adequate.
Nashbar Pro Cable Cutter

SparkPlug

Bit of a shame but given what you have discovered in terms of relative stiffness of rotation it sort of suggests you had to go the disassembly route in order to get things cleaned up properly if you were going to get a working result.

Unfortunately the spring broke which might also be indicative of general corrosion. Generally they do not break unless, repeatedly, stressed beyond their elastic limit and that is or should be hard to do. I should have described the spring better but now you know what it looks like...

Bonus is you have learnt. Better still you persevered in order to do so.

One to put on the general to do yearly, six monthly or shorter term maintenance list. Clean and grease/oil the brakes and their mountings. That will keep any problems at bay in the first place.

A bit of plagiarism of part of FBinNY's signature.

An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure. <=> An ounce of maintenance is worth a pound of cure.