Groupset Problem
 

Hi Guys

Many apologies if this question has been asked before, but trying to sort out a good looking, all-round Groupset upgrade. With the myriad (Who swallowed that dictionary ? :rolleyes:) of possible combinations of Shifters/Derailleurs/Chainsets and Cassettes & Manufacturers, I just don't have the knowledge or experience to know WHAT will work with what !

Basically I'm trying to turn a Hybrid (with originally an MTB slant) into a Flat Bar 'Roadie'...........sort of a poor man's Boardman Hybrid, if you like. (Although the way costs are mounting, maybe I should have bought one outright ! :o )

Story is: I'm currently running a second-hand Claud Butler Urban 100.
A reasonably cheap and lightweight framed Hybrid. Being a pre-owned, 2006 model, it's had almost ALL the running gear replaced with anything the owner(s) came across.

Instead of the original 48/38/28 chainset, it now has a 52/39 double, working with a 7sp 14/28 Freewheel assembly with an 8sp rear derailleur, an unknown Shimano fd, and probably the original STI combined Brakes/Shifters.

We have one or two steep climbs nearby, so I decided to upgrade to a 105 Hollowtech II 50/39/30 which then needed a Shimano R443 front derailleur to work Triple Chainset with flat bars, (and a clamp to frame pulley wheel, to adapt my frame for a bottom-pull FD) and a set of Freehub wheels that would take an 8/9/10 sp cassette.

To complicate matters further, a mate flogged me a 9sp SRAM 11/32 cassette, before I found the 105 Chainset is TEN speed, and the total capacity of teeth is probably too great to use on a Triple(?),
Then a Tiagra 50/34 Hollowtech II Double came along at a price too good to refuse.
(No front derailleur for it though yet).

So with everyone seeming to go for Double Chainsets these days.....105 Triple or Tiagra Double ?

Will have to use 10sp Chain obviously anyway, but use SRAM 9sp, or buy 10sp cassette with WHICH ratios ? (Read that a lot of riders find the inclusion of a 16T sprocket gives a comfortable road pace).
Will I be able to use a med. cage 105 rear derailleur (if using the Triple Chainset) ? and which Flat Bar Shifter/ Derailleur combo will give me the correct cable pull ?

I COULD always copy the Boardman Hybrids I suppose, but to be honest they're a right ' Dog's Breakfast' of FSA Cranks & BB, Microshift Front Derailleur, SRAM Rear, KMC Chain and Shimano cassette ! :eek: No wonder my bloody brain's about to explode !
Can anyone save a poor Senior Citizen Newbie :50: and help him and his 'racing' nylon knee replacements up a few hills ?

Cheers :beer:

MalcB

Not sure if that's the question, but if so: just pick a whole groupset based on looks & price, have it installed, ride.

You haven't mentioned what rear wheel you have, if the stock one, which is sounds like you have from the freewheel, not much of you plan will work, as you are limted to 7 speed freewheels.

Would work around this first, then shifters, which you haven't ID'd. From the info given, you would need to go for something from the SRAM or Shimano road range as you mentioned a SGS (med) 105 RD.

Then comes another issue, what 105, this ranges from 9-11 speed, you would need either 5600 or 5700 for 10 speed.

For the cassette/crank, 9/10 speed, as long as the chain matches the cassette, the crank will work.

Would make a list of all the parts you need, match with what you have, then workout what will work together/post here for advice, would also be pricing, as you may find that it soon get cheaper to buy a complete bike with the parts you have listed so far.

For this

This is how you get bikes to a price point

One of your first concerns is that rear wheel. Assuming that it truly has a 7 speed threaded freewheel, don't expect to be able to put more than 7 speeds on the rear without needing to re-dish the wheel, change the axle spacing, etc. If you're serious about this bike, budget for a new wheel with a splined freehub design that will accept the number of speeds you want to have.

Get familiar with SHIMANO Dealer's Manual / User's Manual . All Shimano parts (except some of the dirt-cheapest, possibly) have a part number on them, you can find the part there. the 'SM' and 'SI' documents are a wealth of technical and compatibility info.

I like double cranksets, particularly for flats or mild hills. That 52/39 is a pretty high gear, generally found on more race-oriented bikes, and, again, flats. Triples are fine too, especially if you have fewer rear gears, but I find hunting for the gear I want on a 30 speed, 3x10 drivetrain to be a chore. OTOH a 2x7 drivetrain would feel a little limited, unless I had a very good idea of where I was going to be riding that bike and chosen my gear ratios accordingly. If you hit a lot of hills, you can get some very very low gears out of a triple with a <30t small chainring, plus a wide cassette (with 30 teeth or more on the rear).

If the crank on the bike now is a square taper design, keep in mind that there are many lengths of spindle, and if this bike really is a mash of parts, it's possible that the spindle isn't the correct size for the crank, making the crank sit too close or too far from the frame of the bike. It may not be an issue, but if you have future issues with your derailer seemingly not able to push the chain to the big gear or not able to drop it to the small gear, it *might* be a consideration.

For front derailer/crank compatibility, make sure that your derailer is designed for your crank- a double or a triple. It's pretty easy to tell a double front derailer from a triple- on a double, the plates on either side of the chain are roughly the same shape; on a triple, the back plate is significantly larger and droops lower. Also, check the maximum chainring size for your front derailer- Product Here's your R443 derailer, it is designed for a road front triple crank with a big chainring 52t or less. Such a crank is generally something like 50-39-30t- note this is the same as a road compact crank with an extra ring in the middle. I would not expect this derailer to play nicely with a mountain crank, typically geared more like 42-32-24 or so. This year's Tiagra group looks like your go-to for basing your drivetrain around a road crank and 10 speed rear Tiagra

Side note: the R443 would be considered around Tiagra grade, with the 4xx number. 5 is 105, 6 is Ultegra, etc.

All of that said, front derailers are pretty 'dumb', you can often make them do what you want them to do, with enough adjusting, or being willing to hear a little rubbing in some gears. You may also get a triple shifter to shift a double derailer on a double crank just by blocking off the derailer movement with the limiting screws, and by tightening the cable so you can't accidentally get the shifter into the the third position.

OK, rear derailer/cassette stuff: If your rear derailer is a road series part, expect 28t to be your biggest acceptable cassette, though 30t sometimes works too. If you want to use a 32t or more, you need a mountain derailer. Check out Shimano's entry-level mountain bike stuff, it functions quite nicely/smoothly, it's just slightly heavy (be wary of older generations of these lines, some of it is junk and does not shift well). Acera 9-Speed And above that, Alivio. Note these are 9-speed groups.

Your cassette and crank sizes dictate the length of cage your derailer is going to need (in road derailer terms, SS is short cage, GS is mid, SGS is long cage. I think Shimano only makes GS and SGS mountain derailers). You need to look at the overal difference between your low gear and high gear. Scenario 1: 50/34 double with a 11-28 cassette (a typical road bike drivetrain): 16t difference front + 17t diff rear = 23t total difference, within spec for a short cage. Scenario 2: 44/x/22 mountain triple w/ 11-32 cassette: 22t diff front + 21t diff rear = 43t difference, will way exceed what a ss or gs derailer can handle and you will blow up your drivetrain.

Shimano road and mountain rear derailers, and road and mountain shifters, are 100% compatible with each other, as long as they are designed for the same number of speeds, and they are not 'Dyna-Sys'. Dyna-Sys is a special cable pull for some mid and high end Shimano mountain bike parts, starting at Deore grade.

I think that's all I have in me for the moment- TBH I got a little lost in your description of your bike, but this should be mostly relevant info for mixing and matching. You will need to pick the gearing you want and build around it. Don't sweat the specificity of the 16-tooth thing. Number one, people who sweat stuff like that are nerds ( :) ). Number two, it's not taking the rest of your drivetrain into account. A 16t cog being spun by a 52x39 crank is totally different than a 16t cog spun by a 44x32x22 mtn crank.

Try plugging your current gearing into this Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Gear Calculator , and compare it with some of your potential alternate gears. Look at which gears on your bike you use the most, and how they compare with your potential options.

Any clear thinking clue about what actual gear Ratio [Tooth count] combinations you need ?

22:36 =1:0.61 would that be low enough for you?

My fault jmc101. Not made myself very clear.

Having to junk the 7sp Freewheel Hubs and Wheels, so have already got a pair of Shimano R500 Freehub Wheels which would take either the SRAM 9sp I already have, or a 10sp anybody recommends.
I only mentioned what the bike IS running, and is going to be replaced, so you can get some idea how I'm limited, and how easily it could be improved.

'You may find that it soon get cheaper to buy a complete bike with the parts you have listed so far'.

New Boardmans costing £850 to £1000, with used ones costing at least half, means I still have a bit to play with, with my ' Ebay Special ' :thumb:


'Just pick a whole groupset based on looks & price, have it installed, ride'.

That would rather defeat the whole of my DIY, Anklework. Saving cash, gaining experience, knowledge and the satisfaction you've put together every bolt on your now unique Handbuilt.
It's not ability I lack.....just knowledge.
Give me a Fulcrum and I'll strip any thread you like ! :P (apologies to Archimedes)

Sorry for confusing you, Raiden (I'm in the middle of it ! :()
Many thanks for your exceedingly detailed reply, and the time taken just to compose it, never mind type it ! :thumb:
Thanks for confirming what I suspected, that the SRAM is just TOO big to work with the 105 Triple, and might even struggle with the Tiagra Double. Might as well go for something like a 10sp 12/28 with a 10sp KMC chain (I think).
Going to junk the sq. taper BB along with the 52/39 Crank, and go for the stiffer and lighter Hollowtech.

Haven't ID'd Shifters until I get everyone's opinion on 105 Triple (with it's Granny) or the Tiagra Double and maybe 'Mash' like hell and wear these nylon knees out ! :giver:

Don't know what your terrain's like in sunny CA, but here on the N. Wales coast, on the doorstep of Snowdonia, you go uphill to get anywhere.

'22:36 =1:0.61 would that be low enough for you' ?

:wtf:Sorry fletsbob. Is that the algebraic solution to a quadratic equation, or something ? ;)

Seriously though, thanks for all answers.

Cheers

MalcB

Not sure which you local Halfords is, but Boardman's cost from less than £400, with the parts you have listed, you will be pushing this, and still have a very basic frame/other components.

For the gear ratios, are you carrying anything on the bike, or is it just you, if just you, would could get away with a 32T at the back and a compact up front, if carrying, then a triple would be better, having ridden N.Wales & Snowdonia a bit this year, on a compact & 11-32 worth approx 7kg on the back, it was all doable, having previously looked at gear ratios, there was very little difference in the 34/32 to a triple 30/28 that it wasn't worth the cost of changing.

Thanks for the info. Can't beat someone with a bit of 'hands on'. Maybe you've tried round the Great Orme (nearby).
Will only be carrying bike-lock and some lightweight waterproofs, although will leave wet weather and the supermarket run to my rat bike.

See what you mean with:

Halfords | Boardman Hybrid Sport Bike 2014

Although this Boardman has 1) Alloy forks not Carbon, 2) Sq. taper BB not Hollowtech II, 3) V-Brakes not 105 5700 calipers, 4) Shimano Altus rear derailleur not (probable) 105 med. cage, 5)Altus shifters (mine to be decided) and Boardman's own wheels not Shimano R500's.

Much nearer what I'm trying to achieve is the Boardman Hybrid Team,

Hybrid Bikes Reviews - BikeRadar

which even Halfords are doing at £750

Changed my mind slightly and keeping Urban 100 as is.
An Urban 300 frame, headset and stem has just come my way, (below, without the bars and forks), so going to build on that and leave the 100 in running order.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=419677


Spend to date then is: Claud Butler 300 Frame, Headset, and Stem £ 40
Shimano R500 wheels (with spare front) £ 53
Evo Carbon Forks £ 45
105 Triple Hollowtech ll Chainset £ 45
Pair 105 5700 Caliper Brakes £ 30
Shimano FD R443 front derailleur £ 11
Sundries: Steerer Spacers, Grips, Tubes, Pulley & Clamp etc. say £ 20
Running Total to date £ 244

Not counting the Tiagra Double Chainset at £21, as I'll be using one or the other.
Yet to buy: Rear Derailleur, Tyres, Shifters, Chain and Seat.

Should bring it in about £350. Don't know how prices compare, the other side of the water ? but not too shabby, and HALF the price of the Boardman. :P

Cheers
MalcB