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Laced DS spokes to NDS eyelets and vice versa....

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Laced DS spokes to NDS eyelets and vice versa....

Old 11-30-14, 06:06 PM
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upthywazzoo 
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Laced DS spokes to NDS eyelets and vice versa....

I just noticed this about 5 minutes ago. Do I need to tear the wheel down and relace? It's a front wheel, H Plus Son Archetype 20H with wide flange hub. Radial pattern, 100kgf. I've ridden the wheel about 150 miles so far without a problem but am worried that the eyelets will begin to fail.

Thanks!
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Old 11-30-14, 06:42 PM
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i would say a higher risk of spoke breakage depending on the exit angle. realistically i would just ride it if it is built up
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Old 11-30-14, 06:57 PM
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Okay, so probably I haven't stressed the eyelets such that they will fail? Good news to me
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Old 11-30-14, 07:09 PM
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i'm assuming you have a rim with holes offset from the center line, like maybe a millimeter or two off the line?

i don't know that it makes a difference in the real world, but as you know, they are not intended to be laced that way. how in the world could that have happened?

i personally only know one other guy that's done it, and know for a fact he's done it multiple times.

BTW, he tried to fix it once by removing nipples, one at a time, and shifting them one hole. ...didn't work... ended up unlacing the whole thing and refacing. it turned out he ended up with the valve hole between the two closest spaced spokes and had to do yet again. what a boob.

Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 11-30-14 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 11-30-14, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by upthywazzoo View Post
Okay, so probably I haven't stressed the eyelets such that they will fail? Good news to me
The tipoff is to look at the line of the nipple and spoke. If the nipple was able to set inline with the spoke all is OK. Odds are it isn't perfect, but slight bends are common even when laced right so OK too. More of a bend (say 5° or so) may indicate a greater risk of spoke failure at the first thread.

If this were a rear, I'd probably suggest a rebuild. But fronts have much more forgiveness so you might as well cross your fingers and go with it.
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Last edited by FBinNY; 11-30-14 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 11-30-14, 07:43 PM
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Yeh.... I will probably end up relacing as a matter of aesthetic conscience more than caution. As it stands the nipples pretty much point straight up, with the spoke bending over to either side of the hub. I really don't know how I didn't notice this, but at least I'll have experience for next time!
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Old 11-30-14, 09:07 PM
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The archetype doesn't have eyelets. You're talking about spoke holes.
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Old 11-30-14, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by upthywazzoo View Post
Yeh.... I will probably end up relacing as a matter of aesthetic conscience more than caution. As it stands the nipples pretty much point straight up, with the spoke bending over to either side of the hub. I really don't know how I didn't notice this, but at least I'll have experience for next time!
If you have that much bend, the damage is already done. Spokes aren't more likely to break just because of the bend. It's the bending back and forth as the spokes twist as you tighten the wheel. If you unlace and relace, it's that much more bending. Plus odds are there was a bit of stretching at the thread that was bent. When you relace the wheel the spokes will be effectively longer, and that bend will engage the nipple's thread, binding and making the twisting worse.

So, you have little to gain by relacing correctly unless you replace the spokes. OTOH you have little to lose leaving bad enough alone, since the worst that can happen is needing to relace with new spokes. Who knows, you might keep these for years, but even if they only last 6 months, that's 6 months more than pulling them apart now.
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Old 12-01-14, 06:22 AM
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I've deliberately built wheels in lateral cross, and they've done just fine. But it does depend on the curvature and drilling of the rim. Some take it just fine, and some leave the nipple sitting at a nasty angle. I've never done it on a nasty.
I've day dreamed about nipples with a true ball joint flange and maybe a wider drilling to accomodate this more generally.
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Old 12-01-14, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
If you have that much bend, the damage is already done. Spokes aren't more likely to break just because of the bend. It's the bending back and forth as the spokes twist as you tighten the wheel. If you unlace and relace, it's that much more bending. Plus odds are there was a bit of stretching at the thread that was bent. When you relace the wheel the spokes will be effectively longer, and that bend will engage the nipple's thread, binding and making the twisting worse.

So, you have little to gain by relacing correctly unless you replace the spokes. OTOH you have little to lose leaving bad enough alone, since the worst that can happen is needing to relace with new spokes. Who knows, you might keep these for years, but even if they only last 6 months, that's 6 months more than pulling them apart now.
Alright, thanks for the tip. I guess I'll have no shortage of projects this winter
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Old 12-01-14, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
i'm assuming you have a rim with holes offset from the center line, like maybe a millimeter or two off the line?

i don't know that it makes a difference in the real world, but as you know, they are not intended to be laced that way. how in the world could that have happened?

i personally only know one other guy that's done it, and know for a fact he's done it multiple times.

BTW, he tried to fix it once by removing nipples, one at a time, and shifting them one hole. ...didn't work... ended up unlacing the whole thing and refacing. it turned out he ended up with the valve hole between the two closest spaced spokes and had to do yet again. what a boob.
Sometimes it feels nice to know that there are some mistakes I've never made. I mean the opposite side lacing of course; I HAVE had to undo a wheel and relace it for other screwups.
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Old 12-01-14, 11:18 AM
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I tried it as a test once; I wanted a greater bracing angle, thinking that would make a stronger wheel. But the eyelets put the nipples at the wrong angle and the spokes were bending going into the nipples.

So I unlaced it (before doing the stress relieving) and started again from scratch . That wheel seems fine now, no creaks or broken spokes after maybe 1000 miles.
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Old 12-01-14, 11:49 AM
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I built a touring wheel with a Velocity Dyad rim that was laced in the same manner as the OP's wheel.
After breaking the 3rd spoke at the nipple exit I realized my folly.
The Dyad rim is counter-intuitive with regard to the inner wall/outer wall drilling, due to the depth of the box cross section, I suppose.
In order to give the nipple/spoke a straight shot from rim to hub, the inner holes stagger opposite the outer holes.
Really gotta look at to see it.
Anyway, as I was breaking spokes, I relaced with new spokes.
No breakage after that.
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Old 12-01-14, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronno6 View Post
The Dyad rim is counter-intuitive with regard to the inner wall/outer wall drilling, due to the depth of the box cross section, I suppose.
In order to give the nipple/spoke a straight shot from rim to hub, the inner holes stagger opposite the outer holes.....
This is actually very common. Many rims with zigzag offset spoke holes appear to be drilled straight down the middle from the tire side. On a deeper rim, or one with spoke holes straight down the middle but drilled at an angle, the outer (tire side) hole will be on the opposite side.

If in doube, or maybe even if not in doubt, the best way to be sure is to thread a nipple onto a spoke put in into the rim with a bit of tension and see the "natural" line it wants to assume.
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