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6800 cassette peculiar chain behavior

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6800 cassette peculiar chain behavior

Old 12-07-14, 08:59 PM
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SirHustlerEsq
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6800 cassette peculiar chain behavior

I have a 2014 Evo with 6800 and recently replaced the chain and cassette. The bicycle rode flawlessly until changing cassettes, now I have this strange chain "skip" or "buck". When I'm pedaling in the 53 and 16 or 17-tooth, the chain makes a ticking noise on each wheel rotation. After a little madness including breaking a sub 100-mile chain, I realized the chain is slightly climbing the lower cassette gear. When I spin the crank backwards, you can more easily see it climb. If I spin 110rpm, the chain bucks and skips a little. I decided to deal with the noise at the suggestion of the bicycle shop who said "11-speed stuff is just really tight" and then I broke a chain early in my first ride through some hills.

This made me pretty frustrated so I put on the old , same model number cassette and it does not make this noise nor cause the chain to climb the lower gear. To eliminate variables, I replaced the RD hanger and had it checked by the shop, it's straight. I swapped cassettes on wheels and it always comes back to the one, new cassette as the noise maker. I removed and re-installed the bottom bracket to make sure the crank mounts as inboard as possible. If I adjust the RD inward just one click, the chain is slow to shift from the 25, 23, and slow to shift down to the 12-tooth.

To summarize:
New 6800 cassette
New 6800 chain
Shop fit and adjusted the stuff
Rode home and the next day with ticking noise and funky chain behavior consistent with today's symptoms
Rode, broke chain on day 1
New chain, noise persists
New RD hanger
RD straight-ness verified by shop
Bottom bracket installation reconfirmed (crank is mounted inboard correctly) by shop
Axle and axle cap are straight and true
Cassette noise only on 16 and 17-tooth cogs
Compared and confirmed inter-gear spacer width consistency from old cassette to new
Gears appear to be flat when laid on a machinist's straight
Any RD minor adjustment inboard causes slow/undesirable shifting
Any RD minor adjustment outboard increases noise and chain skipping
New cassette behaves strangely on both sets of wheels; old cassette works flawlessly on both sets of wheels

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlDU...youtu.be&t=40s
Magic at 0:40

Thanks for taking the time to consider this and be mean to me if I've made a stupid mistake.

Last edited by SirHustlerEsq; 12-07-14 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 12-07-14, 09:29 PM
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Also, cables and housing are new.
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Old 12-07-14, 09:35 PM
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Lots of moving parts in your post so it's hard to know what you have going on. Maybe introduced some flaw by changing so much stuff at once? Why new cables? Correct spacers (or none) with the cassettes? Correct torque on the lock rings?
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Old 12-07-14, 09:46 PM
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The simplest experiment is to replace the cassette, then the chan. Sometimes parts don't play nice when they should.

11 speed is really cutting the tolerances to a minimum. Any chain protrusion, slight link offness, tooth misshape, matters more with such little fudge factor. At work we would try a replacement part pretty quick. Andy.
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Old 12-07-14, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post
Lots of moving parts in your post so it's hard to know what you have going on. Maybe introduced some flaw by changing so much stuff at once? Why new cables? Correct spacers (or none) with the cassettes? Correct torque on the lock rings?
I made the litany of changes after the symptom appeared. New cables to eliminate that variable. No spacers. 25lb-ft of torque.
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
The simplest experiment is to replace the cassette, then the chan. Sometimes parts don't play nice when they should.

11 speed is really cutting the tolerances to a minimum. Any chain protrusion, slight link offness, tooth misshape, matters more with such little fudge factor. At work we would try a replacement part pretty quick. Andy.
Thanks. I suppose pending this thread I will just buy a new cassette and hope for the best. I don't think it should make that ticking-noise so if this is as good as it get's, it may get sold and replaced with SRAM or Campy. However, I really think Shimano's standard is higher, considering my other cassette works flawlessly.
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Old 12-07-14, 09:51 PM
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Maybe you damaged something when you broke those chains.
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Old 12-07-14, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post
Maybe you damaged something when you broke those chains.
I had this problem prior to breaking the chain, when I had the new cassette in question and "new-chain A". Sorry that I did not make that clear in the first post.
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Old 12-07-14, 09:55 PM
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Can someone confirm that the chain should not be climbing teeth like that? When I pedal forward, as discussed above, the noise persists and if cadence is fast enough the chain will skip and bounce.

Last edited by SirHustlerEsq; 12-07-14 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 12-07-14, 10:03 PM
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"High maintenance."
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Old 12-07-14, 10:13 PM
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If the problem does indeed occur once per wheel revolution it simply cannot be caused by the chain, which should be obvious. The only thing that occurs with the chain/cog interface once per revolution is the same cog tooth (or teeth) engaging the chain. Therefore the first thing to check are the cog teeth. I see no other possibility than that or incorrect spacing.
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Old 12-07-14, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post
"High maintenance."
Walk four hours in cycling shoes, then ignore the symptom. The chain should not skip and bounce at a 110rpm cadence.
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Old 12-07-14, 10:40 PM
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Did you turn the barrel adjuster? Sounds like you need to screw it in 1/2 turn or so.
There ARE manufacturing tolerances in cassettes.
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Old 12-07-14, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Did you turn the barrel adjuster? Sounds like you need to screw it in 1/2 turn or so.
There ARE manufacturing tolerances in cassettes.
Screwing it in half a turn makes the clicking and jumping louder/ more intense.
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Old 12-07-14, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by SirHustlerEsq View Post
Screwing it in half a turn makes the clicking and jumping louder/ more intense.
Try the other way then.
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Old 12-08-14, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SirHustlerEsq View Post
Screwing it in half a turn makes the clicking and jumping louder/ more intense.
As suggested, turn it the other way, then. And try making adjustments in 1/4 turn or smaller increments. A half-turn is a pretty coarse change and may take you past the proper adjustment; I move maybe 1/8th turn or less when I get close.
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Old 12-08-14, 06:54 AM
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As an experiment try and swap spacers around and see does the problem move with the spacer.I am assuming not all the spacers are fixed.
And if there is no effect try to finesse the adjustment.
All that's left then is to try another cassette.
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Old 12-08-14, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
As suggested, turn it the other way, then. And try making adjustments in 1/4 turn or smaller increments. A half-turn is a pretty coarse change and may take you past the proper adjustment; I move maybe 1/8th turn or less when I get close.
If I move the RD adjustment inboard (lengthen adjuster screw) it will not shift from top two gears, move the RD outboard (shorten adjustment screw) and the chain clicks and jumps only on those two gears.

Originally Posted by blamester View Post
As an experiment try and swap spacers around and see does the problem move with the spacer.I am assuming not all the spacers are fixed.
And if there is no effect try to finesse the adjustment.
All that's left then is to try another cassette.
I did that and measured them, all the same size down to ~.003". I'm about to swap-around individual teeth and see what happens.
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Old 12-08-14, 11:37 AM
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Pedaling backwards only shows that the chain line is not straight.
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Old 12-08-14, 12:51 PM
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Tried looking for the same thing on my ultegra 6800 chain/cassette and it doesn't do that. From your video looks to be that it is slightly jumping on the same tooth/2 teeth about inline to the words "ULTEGRA" on the lock ring. As cny-bikeman mentioned, it is most likely the teeth or something making that cog slightly askew. Try a different cassette.



Originally Posted by SirHustlerEsq View Post
Can someone confirm that the chain should not be climbing teeth like that? When I pedal forward, as discussed above, the noise persists and if cadence is fast enough the chain will skip and bounce.
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Old 12-08-14, 02:17 PM
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Well, I concede defeat. It appears this is just "how it is" for a 12-25 11-speed cassette. 11-25 does not do this. We tried a few different cassettes, went through a bunch of stuff, and I'm stuck with it.

tick


tick


tick


tick
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Old 12-08-14, 03:16 PM
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No, unless you tried a different 12-25 cassette with the same result you can not yet conclude that.
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Old 12-08-14, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cny-bikeman View Post
No, unless you tried a different 12-25 cassette with the same result you can not yet conclude that.
I tried another 12-25, same result.
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Old 12-08-14, 03:39 PM
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I'm going to offer a weird suggestion.

Have you looked at the hub for any marks? Cogs can sometimes dig into the hub body, if you install a new cassette it won't match the hub shell gouges and you can get a little tweak when you put the cog under load. The original cassette will match the hub shell for wear.
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Old 12-08-14, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
I'm going to offer a weird suggestion.

Have you looked at the hub for any marks? Cogs can sometimes dig into the hub body, if you install a new cassette it won't match the hub shell gouges and you can get a little tweak when you put the cog under load. The original cassette will match the hub shell for wear.
One wheel has a Ti freehub and the other freehub had 0 miles when this started.
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Old 12-08-14, 11:45 PM
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Sorry to hear this. That's a bummer, especially if it's repeatable.

One other suggestion.....Try either a 105 / 5800 version of that cassette or (gulp) a Dura Ace version? Perhaps one of those would omit whatever manufacturing issue the 2 6800 versions you've tried have??

My opinion is not popular, however, I too have an EVO w/ 6800. (EVO 3) And it's nice, it works, etc. I get the FD is an advanced design w/ easy shifting and the brakes, shorter shifters, etc are all good, but if I'm being honest.......I'm just not that impressed.

6800 isn't perfect. I don't know if you've noticed, but I can detect RD shifting anomolies throughout the range depending on my RD adjustment. There is no "perfect shifting all the way up & down the cogs". It's a compromise if "good enough" but that's not unlike most RD's/cassettes have been. Just my $.02.

Hope you can find your way around the issue.
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