dengidog

I have a touring bike that I love, but HATE the toe overlap. It's not only annoying, but it has nearly caused me to take a tumble quite a few times. I've tried to get over it, heck, I 've had the bike for about 4 years now, but I can't. A couple of different LBS mechanics in the States recommended that I replace the fork with one that's curved/more rake. The last one gave me the info for a Surly cross fork and I ordered it. I would have done it while I was there, but time was always a problem. So...

The fork just arrived and I'm making arrangements for it to be installed. While trying to see the difference in "toe clearance," I noticed that the tube is a bit longer than what's currently installed with spacers. I realize that this is probably a very dumb/obvious question, but I know absolutely zip about anything mechanical (I'm trying to learn). My question is: can I have the mechanic leave the tube length alone (uncut) so that the height will be up about 2" more than it currently is? That is, other than changing the angle of my riding, is there any other reason why I should have it at the current height? (seat and handlebars pretty much flush) I know that will change the riding geometry, etc, but I've never liked the feeling of being bent-over like most racers and super-serious tourers (old and grumpy, set-in-her-ways female here) and this just seems like it could solve two problems for me.

Thanks in advance!

rhenning

Yes that can be done but you need to be talking to the person doing the install not us. I have no idea of their skill level and how you fit on your bike. It would seem to me your bike is to small if you have toe overlap problems. Pictures of you and you on the bike might help. The changed fork will change the bikes handling. Maybe for the better maybe for the worse. You haven't even provided us with the model/brand of bike or the frame size. Also your size would help. Roger

pdlamb

If you think there's even the slightest possibility that you would ever, ever, want to change the bar height, tell your wrench to leave the steerer uncut. Spacers are cheap, and the lovely thing about leaving the steerer uncut is that you can easily change the height of your bars. Didn't ride much in the winter, the bars seem uncomfortably low on your first spring ride? Shift a few spacers under the stem. Been riding all summer, you're much more flexible, and you want to stay with the pack? Lower the stem back down. Put on a few pounds, and your tummy gets in the way? Move the bars back up.

This used to be a fairly common annual rhythm with threaded headsets and stems, but now, for ease of assembly, threadless stems rule. The manufacturers and dealers have covered some of this up by publishing lots of fit articles, implying we all have a single, unchanging, fit requirement - just like the pros who ride 15,000 miles every year.

FBinNY 

There's a generally accepted rule of thumb that you should limit yourself to about 40mm in spacer height below the stem. Even if you have zero spacers now, 2" more would be beyond that limit.

As I said, it's a rule of thumb, and subject to a number of variables, including stem extension, stem rise angle, and how and where you ride. IMO, unless you're an animal, or really work bars you're reasonably OK with 2" of spacers. I've even seen as much as 3" but that's really pushing it.

If you haven't already done so, invert the stem so it rises more rather than add spacers. Or consider a stem with a more open angle which would rise more.

in any case, don't trim the fork yet. Fit spacers below to try a stem height, and spacers above to fill the available space until you've decided on the final stem height. Ride a while to confirm that this is where you want it, then trim the steerer down to about 4mm above the stem and fit a 5mm spacer to finish the job.

dengidog

First off, THANKS! to all of you for your replies. As mentioned, I know absolutely zilch about mechanics and am very embarrassed that I ride without knowing how to do anything more than change a tire. Honestly, I'm not exaggerating. I'm slowly putting a simple tool kit together and will start out with basic repairs/maintenance and try to build up my knowledge. I don't know the names of anything other than the generic "wrench," "pliers," and such and have had to go online to find out what a vise grip is, etc, etc.

The reason I mention all of that is so that you'll see why I've asked what is probably such a basic question. My Spanish is decent, but when you realize that I don't understand most mechanical explanations in ENGLISH, much less Spanish...well.....yes, it's embarrassing. I'm trainable, but truly starting from scratch.

After I got the above info, I understood when Fernando explained the same. He's going to put in some spacers and not cut the tube until I've had a chance to check it all out. It will mean my riding angle (or whatever it's called) won't be textbook, but it should be a lot more comfortable (older and...cough, cough...more pounds over than I'm going to admit to having) since I like riding a bit more upright.

One last basic (a/k/a dumb) question: Is there any way to increase the offset of the fork or is that an absolute no-no? I seem to recall reading somewhere that a rider had an iron work place increase the curve a bit to end the overlap. Assuming a perfect situation (they don't screw it up), could I have that done without hosing myself even worse than smacking my feet on every turn? The new fork solved the height issue for me, but it didn't solve the toe overlap (#$%^&) problem. The offset is currently 45mm.

As before, thanks so much!

FBinNY 

Yes, steel forks with curved fork blades can have the curve changed to increase rake (the forward extension of the fork). But not all steel forks can have this done. It depends on various factors, plus the mechanic Needs to have the skill and tools to do this right.

However, There are lim its to this, and it effects the bicycles handling, so it's only practical if 5-10mm or so is going to make a critical difference.

I'm surprised you have clearance issues. Under normal conditions you shouldn't, unless you have large feet, front fenders, fat tires, ride with your foot too far forward on pedals (axle should be under the ball of the foot), or have a frame that's bent at the front end setting the fork back form the original position (look for ripples under the front of the down tube (runs from front to crank bearing).

You might also check the actual distance from the front wheel to the pedal at the closest point. This should be about 60mm at least.

fietsbob

A frame Made With a Longer Top Tube will move the wheel further forward Trail Can Remain The same ..
I built a 58cm Light Touring frame with a 60cm Top tube in 1976 to get that. no TCO, with Mudguards ..

another Fork with increased Rake, all else remaining the same, will have a shorter Trail.. So handling will Feel different..

Note: Many say, for Heavy loads of a Porteur Bike (those Big Front Cargo Racks ) benefit from lower trail forks.

as to steerer tube height , tastes Vary , Here is My Trekking Bike I went to extraordinary efforts to regain the original

300mm steerer tube length that the fork that would have been there,
if the factory assembly precut, had not assumed the Owner wanted a low Sporty Posture .
I did Not.
https://www.cyclofiend.com/working/20...clark1008.html

dengidog

Yes, steel forks with curved fork blades can have the curve changed to increase rake (the forward extension of the fork). But not all steel forks can have this done. It depends on various factors, plus the mechanic Needs to have the skill and tools to do this right.
You may have just made my day! lol The new fork is a Surly Cross Cro-mo. Will that work? Fortunately, Fernando is very good even though his shop is very limited (small town). There is an almost megastore in Guadalajara that would be able to do this, so I do have a backup option. I just hate driving there (large city and the traffic is NUTS).

However, There are lim its to this, and it effects the bicycles handling, so it's only practical if 5-10mm or so is going to make a critical difference.
Fortunately, 5-10mm would make a world of difference; it's that irritating.

I'm surprised you have clearance issues. So was I. I never even knew toe overlap existed until this bike. I was told that with some sizes, it happens in order to keep the touring geometry intact. Frankly, had I known, I would have had it designed differently because I feel that strongly about it. I can live with it if I have to, but I don't want to.

Under normal conditions you shouldn't, unless you have large feet (I don't), front fenders (I do, but would take the front one off if absolutely necessary because I truly hate the overlap), fat tires (32), ride with your foot too far forward on pedals (axle should be under the ball of the foot) (I don't. I retrained myself to pedal properly when I started riding again), or have a frame that's bent at the front end setting the fork back form the original position (look for ripples under the front of the down tube (runs from front to crank bearing) (it's all good. FWIW, the bike is titanium, 49cm).

You might also check the actual distance from the front wheel to the pedal at the closest point. This should be about 60mm at least. The bike is currently with Fernando, so I'll check it as soon as I see him on Friday and ask for a fork bend (assuming it's ok on a cro-mo fork.). When the pedals are at the 3-9 position and the wheel is turned, they smack each other. This is why 5-10mm would be a major help. ANYTHING is better than the current overlap.

Please don't laugh, but I took a piece of paper and tried to envision what a higher offset would mean. Am I right in assuming that the difference would mean that the steering tube would be affected, ie, lowered a bit to make up the difference? There's plenty of tube to play with, so I'd still have my height increase. Obviously, the mech would know what to do, but this is just more info for my self-taught bike mechanics 101 course.

As before, thank you so much!

dengidog

Here's another naive (ie, duh!) question for the day: I understand that changing the offset will affect the handling, but other than being different, is it really a problem? I mean, does it make things more wobbly or sensitive or...? For the most part, I'll only be riding locally (11 or so miles) or shorter trips (couple of days), so it won't be heavily loaded as in the past.

rhenning

As I said in the second post the handling will change but if the handling is better or worse or even what you want you will not know until you have paid your money and tried it. There are books written about fork rake and handling if you want to read them. They only say what should happen not what will happen in the real world. You might ride the bike and think it is wonderful handling and the next person to ride the bike might hate it. Roger

fietsbob

'Will it be a Problem' is more of an Opinion than anything else . you have to try it and form your own Opinion.

TCO is Not a problem when you are going Fast enough, only at very low speeds ..

then just coasting without your feet being at 3:00&9:00 and you wont be touching the tire .

FBinNY 

If the front wheel hits the pedal itself, and not the toe of your foot or front edge of a large toe clip, something is seriously wrong. Toe (or toeclip) overlap isn't that rare, but I've never seen a bike where the front wheel could touch a pedal. That's just crazy and dangerous.

Cr-Mo forks can be re raked in most cases. The limiter isn't the material, but the clearances at the top of the fork, because changing the rake will bring the front wheel closer to the brake.

BTW- 49cm frames are more likely to suffer front wheel overlap, because they often have shorter top tubes to maintain proportion. But as I said, actually touching the pedal itself is nuts. If it's as you say, the better option would be to go with a smaller diameter front wheel. This is the logic that led to bicycles like Terry's having smaller wheels. It just wasn't possible to proporly proportion small frames with 700c wheels.

Shrinking the front wheel will cause other issues unless you change the fork, and is only a last resort option. Without seeing you or the bike, I'll suggest that possibly the only right answer for you to have a good fitting/good handling bike is to buy one designed around the smaller wheel concept.

dengidog

Gosh, I'm learning a lot and I truly appreciate your well-explained answers.

I re-read what I wrote and I should have been a little more clear (this is what happens when you write before a nap for the New Year's Eve party!). When the pedals are 3-9, more or less or I'm turning (even a little), and going slow (like first mounting), it's the fender, not the wheel, that touches. Without the fender, there would be some clearance, but it's still minimal. I don't ride in clips because I'm a serious klutz. So, to be specific, my toes smack the fender if I'm not careful and the pedals scrape it.

I'm trying to visualize the brake issue, but without the bike it's a bit difficult although I think I understand (I'll go look at some pics when I finish this). The good thing is that I can talk to Fernando about it and get his opinion. He hasn't led me astray yet, so if he says what I have is the best I'm going to get, then I'll just deal with it. If nothing else, I'm still very happy to have the handlebars raised a bit.

When I went for this bike, I gave all of my measurements to the company and was told that the 49cm was a good fit. It actually is, but I wish I'd been told about the overlap and either given the option of accepting the overlap or else possible alternatives. I know that some folks swear that you don't mess with the touring geometry, but one look at me would be enough to know that I'm not one of them (translation: I'll never be setting any records).

BTW, I love that you quoted the late, great Adm. Hopper (I'm retired Navy).

Have a great happy and healthy New Year!

Cheri

FBinNY 

Something isn't adding up.

Next year, take a moment and measure the distance from the front axle to the center of the bottom bracket. (be sure the steering is straight ahead when you measure). In a decent sport/race bike this should be very close to 23cm, which allows reasonable toe clearance with a 25mm tire and 170mm cranks. Even then a person with big feet or large toe clips is going to have toe/wheel overlap.

On a touring bike designed for fatter tires and/or fender clearance I'd expect that distance to be greater, say about 25cm or so. However a small frame may have a shorter top tube, pulling the axle/BB distance shorter also. But the clearance you're describing is just plain crazy, which is why I want the axle/BB measurement as a reality check.

Once I know that, I might be able to help you with options, then of course, I might not.

Prospero ano nuevo
Don Pancho

Andrew R Stewart 

I read this thread and agree with Francis that something is amiss. But the front center dimension (BB to ft axle) is typically around 58+cm, not 23cm. Think about it, the tire radius (of a 700x25c) is about 33.5cm and then you add the crank arm and pedal axle to end of shoe/toe clip. I was taught that 58.5cm was enough for most average riders to have minimal or no overlap. Remember that as one turns the ft wheel into a corner or to balance the back point (that come into contact with the shoe) actually moves forward.

So if the OP does measure it will be interesting. Also if he can mount up on the bike in his actual riding position and have a friend take a photo we can see a lot more then we can imagine. Andy

FBinNY 

Typo alert. I was doing a few things at once and forgot to convert. I meant inches, not cm, so 23" (58cm) is the short pedal to BB distance for a sport/race bike

hueyhoolihan

as previously mentioned, pictures would be a great help here. showing riderless pedal/fender overlap.

LesterOfPuppets

Most road bikes I've had suffer from toe overlap but it's only a big deal when I come home, as there's a pair of 30" radius turns i have to make to get up the sidewalk to my apartment.

Never had a pedal overlap problem, not even when I ran big bmx platforms on a Diamondback Interval (I don't think that bike had toe overlap either, though).

Back to the steerer tube, if you decide to leave it uncut and want to reduce the amount of spacers, you can get a VO Tallstack stem. There's also a Japanese company that makes them, and probably others. It's a -17, or so, however.

dengidog

I get the bike back tomorrow, so I'll take the measurements and try for some photos, including ones showing how the fender/pedals touch. When I was in the shop yesterday, I saw that the new tube didn't make any difference for the offset--the main reason I had it done which is why I've been asking about whether it was possible to have a mechanic increase it.

FWIW, I don't really care if the tube is cut/uncut has lots or few spacers as long as the beast is more comfortable. Of course, I won't know that until I have a chance to sit on it. I asked the shop to leave my handlebars higher than normal (about 2 inches or so above the seat) since I really don't like the standard bent position. I sure it doesn't help that I'm carrying about 25 more pounds than I need, but I've always been like that (the riding position, not the weight!) Fortunately, this can always be adjusted if I actually stick to my New Year's Resolutions...

Wanderer

How long are your crank arms? Could you do with shorter**********?

dengidog

I don't know the length (still waiting to get the bike back...should be late this p.m.), but I'll measure them. I did some quick reading about the arms and that might be a great possibility, rather than trying to mess with the fork. As for working with shorter, unless it causes a real problem, I have no problems with getting used to shorter if it meant that the overlap was no longer an issue. Once again, this is really teaching me a LOT. Thank you!

goldfinch

How tall are you dengidog?

FBinNY 

Can we start a pool? Based on the 49" frame, I want the 5'4" (is there a minimum height rule for the USN?, if not, then I want the 5'2" slot instead.

goldfinch

I was thinking shorter crank arms. As I see someone else was as well.

FBinNY 

I'd be very surprised if this had cranks longer than 170mm. So there's not much downside room, with 165mm being the shortest standard arms. OTOH if she can find and use 160mm cranks that'll certainly help.

IMO - the key dimension is the front axle to BB distance, since once we know that we can rationally consider all options, which include using a narrower front tire, and pulling the fender closer to it, shorter cranks (maybe), or possibly spotting a problem such as a fork pushed back too far.