Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

igh on track dropouts

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

igh on track dropouts

Old 03-11-15, 06:07 AM
  #1  
spectastic
commu*ist spy
Thread Starter
 
spectastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: oregon
Posts: 4,459
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
igh on track dropouts

I'm thinking about turning my fixie into a touring igh bike. I'm wondering if it's ok to put an igh on a track style dropout. I found this guy online, but can't tell if the dropout got messed up because he was using quick release, or if the drivetrain experienced too much torque for the frame to handle (I'm thinking the former).

https://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/29e...ngshotbent.jpg
https://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/29e...em1dropout.jpg

Anyway. rohloff has a site that specifies which dropouts are compatible, and track is not one of them. why is that?

I'm planning on a alfine 8, not rohloff. the gearing ratio is adequate on the alfine 8, and I believe when the hub is broken in, the efficiency is pretty close to the derailleur system (I think?) Please advise if you have a lot of knowledge on igh efficiency.
spectastic is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 06:56 AM
  #2  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 218 Posts
With an IGH, you're putting a fair bit of torque through the rear wheel axle.
The axle will try to twist in the dropouts.
And in the pic, you see that what the hub uses as a fulcrum is at the very end of the dropout slot.
With a Shimano-style Anti-rotation washer in an innermost position you'd have a better chance at pulling it off.
And maybe your dropouts are beefier than his.
Or do the half-link thing to keep the AR tab as close as possible to the bottom of the dropout slot.
Or fabricate some chain tugs to do double duty to also keep the ends of the dropouts together.
Don't think the q/r had anything to do with it.

IGH vs derailer efficiency is a debated thing. Last time I checked derailers still win in good conditions (clean, lubed, good chain line etc) while a high quality IGH has a more uniform drop. It's never as good but also never as bad.
IMO, good IGHs are good enough so that losses aren't immediately noticeable or possible to assign to a certain culprit - particularly when touring. There's the tires, the gear, the riding position etc etc, so don't worry about it.
Pretty much the only time I worry about small changes in performance is when it's fairly important one way or another that I'm able to keep up with other people who might just be fitter than I am.
If I'm gonna ride the Alps with my skinny, endurance-freak brother, I'll look both high and low for anything to make it more even.
But for my commuter bike, it's no big deal.
dabac is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 07:00 AM
  #3  
FastJake
Constant tinkerer
 
FastJake's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 7,953
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked 89 Times in 74 Posts
Since you're willing to drop the money on an IGH setup have you thought about how appropriate your "fixie" frame will be for touring?
FastJake is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 07:12 AM
  #4  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,075

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 147 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3192 Post(s)
Liked 2,502 Times in 1,471 Posts
Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
I'm thinking about turning my fixie into a touring igh bike. I'm wondering if it's ok to put an igh on a track style dropout. I found this guy online, but can't tell if the dropout got messed up because he was using quick release, or if the drivetrain experienced too much torque for the frame to handle (I'm thinking the former).


I'm surprised this happened, as many IGH-equipped bikes have really cheap, stamped, mild steel dropouts and hold up just fine, while these appear to be forged or cast. The only thing that comes to mind is that the anti-rotation washer on the damaged bike appears to seat against the dropout slot at some distance from the axle, increasing the lever arm for the rotation forces. But this would be a problem for any dropout, not just rear-facing track dropouts.



Perhaps an anti-rotation washer that doesn't produce such a long lever arm would be better?



Sheldon Brown has a good discussion on anti-rotation washers here:

Sturmey-Archer Internal-Gear Hubs, Tech Tips
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 07:38 AM
  #5  
spectastic
commu*ist spy
Thread Starter
 
spectastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: oregon
Posts: 4,459
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
good idea on the antirotation washers. and the dropouts on my fixie look a lot like the one in the pictures, except his rear triangle is weird looking.

and the alfine 8 isn't too pricey. One of the reasons of going the igh route is because my other bikes are racing types, so alfine would actually be a step back in cost. And the fixie frame is a cheap one. It's 24 lbs right now, and will probably be 26 with the new hub. But as far as I know, it's hard to find a decent steel frame that's much lighter, and I don't really want to do aluminum or carbon frames.
spectastic is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 07:40 AM
  #6  
spectastic
commu*ist spy
Thread Starter
 
spectastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: oregon
Posts: 4,459
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by dabac View Post
With an IGH, you're putting a fair bit of torque through the rear wheel axle.
The axle will try to twist in the dropouts.
And in the pic, you see that what the hub uses as a fulcrum is at the very end of the dropout slot.
With a Shimano-style Anti-rotation washer in an innermost position you'd have a better chance at pulling it off.
And maybe your dropouts are beefier than his.
Or do the half-link thing to keep the AR tab as close as possible to the bottom of the dropout slot.
Or fabricate some chain tugs to do double duty to also keep the ends of the dropouts together.
Don't think the q/r had anything to do with it.

IGH vs derailer efficiency is a debated thing. Last time I checked derailers still win in good conditions (clean, lubed, good chain line etc) while a high quality IGH has a more uniform drop. It's never as good but also never as bad.
IMO, good IGHs are good enough so that losses aren't immediately noticeable or possible to assign to a certain culprit - particularly when touring. There's the tires, the gear, the riding position etc etc, so don't worry about it.
Pretty much the only time I worry about small changes in performance is when it's fairly important one way or another that I'm able to keep up with other people who might just be fitter than I am.
If I'm gonna ride the Alps with my skinny, endurance-freak brother, I'll look both high and low for anything to make it more even.
But for my commuter bike, it's no big deal.
have you tried using oil bath on your igh? I hear that makes everything a lot smoother, so long as it doesn't leak.
spectastic is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 09:36 AM
  #7  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,599

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,343 Times in 850 Posts
Anyway. rohloff has a site that specifies which dropouts are compatible, and track is not one of them. why is that?
Track frames are 120 wide . but non track fixie, single speed frames can be MTB 135 wide , the R'off hubs are 135 wide.

use the long chainstay torque arm and the torque transfer will be away from the dropout. your yellow bike..
\
Pictured is a S-A anti rotation washer an S-A hub does not have the compound reduction gears that is the 7 low gears of a R'off hub.

it's 1:0.75 gear, low in a 3 speed is about 9th in those [0.774] 1st is 0.279

Last edited by fietsbob; 03-11-15 at 09:48 AM.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 10:16 AM
  #8  
garage sale GT
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts

This is the rear hub of a Raleigh Tourist, the bike with the full chain case and brakes operated by chrome rods. They all had dropouts that released the wheel to the rear.

I'm surprised someone with the cash for a Rohloff couldn't just have the right drops brazed in.

Shimano used to put very clear pictures and instructions on its site. On their site you may be able to find a PDF of the instructional leaflet which would show pictures of exactly what you get in terms of hardware like antirotator washers as well as a description of what it's compatible with.

I think they probably made the Alfine compatible with straight back drops because they would want to court the "dutch city bike" market and those bikes are a lot like the Raleigh tourist.

Anyway the situation with the Alfine may be quite different from the Rohloff because Alfines are not intended for MTB frames.

Last edited by garage sale GT; 03-11-15 at 11:03 AM.
garage sale GT is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 10:28 AM
  #9  
Dan Burkhart 
Senior member
 
Dan Burkhart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Oakville Ontario
Posts: 7,944
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 870 Post(s)
Liked 493 Times in 284 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Track frames are 120 wide . but non track fixie, single speed frames can be MTB 135 wide , the R'off hubs are 135 wide.

use the long chainstay torque arm and the torque transfer will be away from the dropout. your yellow bike..
\
Pictured is a S-A anti rotation washer an S-A hub does not have the compound reduction gears that is the 7 low gears of a R'off hub.

it's 1:0.75 gear, low in a 3 speed is about 9th in those [0.774] 1st is 0.279
This info is correct. Too much torque to use the OEM style anti rotation system with a Rohloff. It would work fine with the torque arm option.
I have built Nexus and Sturmey hubs into track style dropouts with no issues.
Dan Burkhart is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 11:06 AM
  #10  
garage sale GT
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
I'm surprised this happened, as many IGH-equipped bikes have really cheap, stamped, mild steel dropouts and hold up just fine, while these appear to be forged or cast. The only thing that comes to mind is that the anti-rotation washer on the damaged bike appears to seat against the dropout slot at some distance from the axle, increasing the lever arm for the rotation forces. But this would be a problem for any dropout, not just rear-facing track dropouts.



Perhaps an anti-rotation washer that doesn't produce such a long lever arm would be better?


Actually the longer the "lever arm" the lesser the force.

Going with the Sturmey-Archer style of antirotator washer might still work because the center of the dropout is stronger than the ends.
garage sale GT is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 11:31 AM
  #11  
hueyhoolihan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Above ground, Walnut Creek, Ca
Posts: 6,681

Bikes: 8 ss bikes, 1 5-speed touring bike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 86 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
if the hub itself is not used for braking (coaster, roller, disk, etc), and some IGH's aren't, then it should work fine.

that pic, to me, shows a hub that was used for braking.

Last edited by hueyhoolihan; 03-11-15 at 02:33 PM.
hueyhoolihan is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 01:37 PM
  #12  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,599

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,343 Times in 850 Posts
& The S-A axle is Machined Flat on the sides. the washer, shown is an extension of that fact.
Their Drum Brake Hubs all have a torque Braking force, transfer arm.

none of Rohloff's hubs are .. they're all Round axles.

Last edited by fietsbob; 03-11-15 at 01:41 PM.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 02:22 PM
  #13  
spectastic
commu*ist spy
Thread Starter
 
spectastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: oregon
Posts: 4,459
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 653 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
ok thanks. alfine 8 it is
spectastic is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 03:19 PM
  #14  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 218 Posts
O
Originally Posted by garage sale GT View Post

This is the rear hub of a Raleigh Tourist, the bike with the full chain case and brakes operated by chrome rods. They all had dropouts that released the wheel to the rear.
But it also has chain tugs, which sure look like they are capping the ends of the dropouts, which would help protect them from spreading.
dabac is offline  
Old 03-11-15, 03:46 PM
  #15  
garage sale GT
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,078
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by dabac View Post
O

But it also has chain tugs, which sure look like they are capping the ends of the dropouts, which would help protect them from spreading.
I think they'd be deeper and the ends would be more squared if they were truly intended to protect the drops from spreading. Like the name implies, they're for controlling chain tension.
garage sale GT is offline  
Old 03-12-15, 02:42 AM
  #16  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 218 Posts
Originally Posted by garage sale GT View Post
I think they'd be deeper and the ends would be more squared if they were truly intended to protect the drops from spreading.
Possible, no way to tell from the pic. Wouldn't take much engagement to help prevent spreading though.

Originally Posted by garage sale GT View Post
Like the name implies, they're for controlling chain tension.
I know that's the first and foremost use.

But if track ends spreading was a common enough issue to merit attention, it'd be dead easy to make a pair whose main function would be to prevent track ends from splaying open instead, or as well.
dabac is offline  
Old 03-12-15, 02:48 AM
  #17  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1073 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 218 Posts
Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
that pic, to me, shows a hub that was used for braking.
Think the forces through. If that was brake induced deformation, it'd be on the top prong and not the bottom prong.

I'm betting on drive torque deformation. An IGH on anything but the straight-through gear will put torque on the axle. Pretty much like a hub motor.
dabac is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
le mans
Bicycle Mechanics
6
02-07-19 01:54 PM
H.S.Clydesdale
Classic & Vintage
29
05-06-13 08:45 PM
pstock
Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area
35
10-23-12 01:16 AM
DRietz
Framebuilders
10
09-16-10 04:33 PM
carleton
Triathlon
13
02-25-10 09:42 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.