3X or 2X ?
 

I am building a rear wheel with a 36 hole Shimano Nexus 7-speed IGH. Normally it would a no-brainer to use a 3 cross spoke lacing pattern, but this hub has very large flanges with an 87mm spoke hole diameter. This is about 1" larger than even high flange track hubs, and my concern is that the extreme spoke angle will cause them to intersect adjacent spoke heads. So, I'm wondering if it would be better to go with a 2 cross pattern instead. Any thoughts ? Thanks.

If your rims are less than about a 30mm profile, 3X should be OK, but more than that, I go 2X for sure with hub flanges that large.

I have been hearing about the issues of interference from spoke crosses for decades. I have also been lacing 36 hole wheels 4X for as long, even Campy Tipo high flanges. (I have many thousands of miles of 4X 36 hole Tipo hubs, maybe 65,000.) Spoke head breakage has been completely normal (and in recent years a lot less than breakages at the threads). I might have 5 spoke breakages of all types over the lifespan of a pair of wheels that each get three rims that see road grit and rebuilds using the same spokes. Now I am 150 pounds and a cliimber, not a powerhouse in any way. Still, I think the issue of the spokes interfering is overblown. So early in life, they take a set due to the interference. Kinda like early in life the elbow bend is slightly altered by the hub drilling. Is that a problem? Doesn't seem to be for the elbows.

Ben

Let your spokes and rim tell you.

Thread a spoke and nipple through two adjacent holes. Holes are almost always drilled radially (except for side to side) so the spokes will want to go to and meet in the middle. Now pull down to add a bit of tension, and flex the ends apart to see where you begin to feel resistance because the nipples don't want to go further. That gap at the hub is what you don't want to pass on the build, so use whichever cross pattern is closest to it.

i had a Nexus-7 built on a 28hole 559mm (MTB) rim with 3x. i didn't experience and spoke problems. i put about 7000 commuting miles on it before i decided i wanted my old derailleur back again. this is not a criticism, the hub worked fine for commuting, i was just beginning to do more recreational riding at the time. 2x wouldn't worry me though. :)

36hole 4 cross the first cross is the spoke on the opposite side of the flange but it's separated by the flange and headed to the opposite side of the rim . weave cross is the last one..

S-A 36 hole drum brake freewheel hub Quite dished , 4 x works adequately.

maybe if the rim was small? 32hole R'off 3 cross would work ( flange more durable, like 4x,36) in a 26" they recommend 2 cross, in a 20" wheel 1 cross ..

My 28 hole Shimano Brompton dyno-hub, 1X, 20" SON 32 hole is 3 cross..

36 is also divisible by 3 .. so crows foot , a radial with 2 , 2X spokes as a group of 3; another 3 on the other side, 6 groups of 6.. something different ..


2 or 3 cross? either..

As a follow up to my original post, I decided to lace the hub 3X to a Sun CR18 box section rim, and the outer spokes cleared the heads of the adjacent inner spokes easily. I'm sure that I could have laced it 4X w/o any overlap if I had wanted. I used DT Swiss Competition 2.0/1.8/2.0 butted SS spokes with brass nipples. I did not need to lubricate the spoke threads and there was no spoke wind up when tightening. Another thing I like about using DT spokes is that they are available in 1mm length increments, whereas many other brands are only available in either even or odd lengths, so I was able to get exactly the correct spoke length for each side of the hub and the spokes threaded onto the nipples fully w/o sticking out or bottoming on the threads.

Thanks for the update.
Cheers,
David in Alaska

Yeah, assuming 26" (559) or larger wheel, I would go 3X on a CR18 rim with that hub too on 36 spokes.

I've had folks telling me for decades to be careful of spoke/spokehead interference with high crossings. I have done 4X 36 hole on some quite large flanged hubs with real interference. It has never been an issue. If I build the wheel properly, spoke breakage doesn't happen any differently or more often.

My theory on this is that the spokes take the appropriate bend as you build the wheel and the first ride, just like the J bend at the head settles to a new bend at the spoke hole n the flange. Once these bends happen, they don't change and are never an issue later.

I won't argue the theory very hard. But my current 4X Campy Tipo front hub spokes on my winter/rain/commuter go ~6 years on three different rims and I might break 2 spokes, probably at the threads. And there is a little interference at the heads.

87mm hub diameter? My Tipos are 75mm. That's 1/2" diff, 1/4" on the radius. I suspect you could lace these up 4X without issue as long as you could sleep at night knowing of the interference. 3X probably won't even touch. If it were me, I won't 2X a second thought. I'd try a few spokes in, enough to see what 4X looked like. But I am guessing I would be more willing to hear of 5 years of "you have too many crosses; you are going to pop heads" than you are. Go 3X.

Edit: Short memory. Totally forgot I said almost this two weeks ago!

Ben

Why don't you attach a nice photo of your built wheel? That would serve as a visual documentation of what you did and serve future generations of budding wheelbuilders to try and emulate your feat.

BTW, did you decide to add some gears to one of your FG/SS bikes or did you do this for a friend? Also: greetings dude, long time no chat!

The spoke head interference is not so much a concern as nipples that wont swivel to align with the spokes at the rim end, causing the spoke to bend at the nipple. That's the main reason I tent toward fewer crosses, particularly with eyeletted rims

I converted my Salsa Casseroll SS to 7-speed IGH. Good to hear from you too, hope all is well at your end.

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That looks perfect, IMHO. If I had to change one thing on that bike, I would make the frame violet (my favourite colour (hey, don't judge me, I've always liked it)). Other than that, everything, including the handlebar, is just perfect.

As for me, I'm having increasing problems sitting after about 8-10 km of cycling. It's nothing terrible, but it's steadily increasing as an issue. Before you mention it: I've tried practically everything that involves padding, seat adjustment and body position, cycling pants and underpants. I've been doing this cycling stuff a long time now.

But regardless, what brings you into the geared world? Though, IIRC, you already had a geared bike or two back when we last chatted.

I an realizing reading this thread that's why I occasionally break spokes at the nipples. Still, it happens infrequently enough and those highly crossed wheel s are such great rides I probably will not change. (Breakage is about on par with spoke head popping with this old zinc plated Robergel spokes, good strong spokes with classic French quality control. 2 or 3 spokes would pop heads no matter how well you built the wheel. Always. The rest would go for thousands of miles, no issues at all.

Maybe what I should do is run a rattail file at the spoke angle through the rim's spoke holes. Next time I do a rim replacement, I'll try that. (With the old and new rims taped together, there is no chance of filing the wrong direction.)

Edit: with 36 spokes, breaking one isn't a very big deal and never a ride ender, even when I don't have a spoke wrench on me.

Ben

Taking 4X even further, I rebuilt an old MTB wheelset years ago due to terrible corrosion and rust on the existing spokes. 26" rims, high flange freewheel hubs. I measured a spoke and bought the same length. Without thinking about it, I laced the wheel and found all the spokes were too long. The wheel was originally built 4X! And it went back together that way just fine. Though I wouldn't have built it that way myself.

I'm curious why you bother building 4X. The spokes are longer than necessary and as I recall it's more of a pain to build. So why do it?

No real reason not to on a 36h (or more) hub with a flange diameter under 3" or so. On larger flanges, or with smaller or deeper rims, pushing spokes too far apart at the hub can cause breakage at the nipple.

But what's the benefit? I see a marginal increase in weight and a marginal (potential) increase in spoke breakage at the nipple. So why do it at all?

BITD, when LF flanges were common on road hubs, and we built with lighter spokes, 4x 36h was common to reduce torsional load on rear wheels, especially for alpine riding. I still build 36h LF track wheels 4x for sprinter clients. Otherwise 3x,4x barely makes a difference either way, especially with SF hubs where the difference is marginal.

There's also a practical advantage to the builder in building 36h 4x. It allows use of the same spokes regardless of flange size, reducing inventory needs.

Nice bike, [MENTION=168526]TejanoTrackie[/MENTION]! I would say 3x or 2x, it doesn't make a difference.

With 36H, I prefer 4x because

1. mechanically, it's no better or worse,
2. it's no harder for me to build than 3x, and
3. I like the way it looks.

eyelet
 

Did you mean non-eyeletted?

That's why I built my Nexus 8 700c 2x, no problem for 11000kms (at that point a car hit me, wheel tacoed, rebuilt the same way, 3000kms more so far).

F*CK! How did that go injury-wise? Did you get a concussion? How are you doing now?

It sounds worse than it really was, we both were going slowly, I fell but only had a sore leg and a bit of road rash. 2 days later I was OK again.

Okay - the main thing is that you didn't get a concussion or other kind of head trauma.

Ride safely!