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Help with a serial number

Old 07-09-15, 11:29 AM
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maiello
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Help with a serial number

Evening folks,

Wondering if someone can help me with a serial number on this old bike. The larger printed number is ' 6025' or just '025' the smaller lettering number seems to be '6263' possibly; the long word in the middle no idea. Anyone come across anything similar. I'm guessing the frame is 60's-70'S. I live in England so i'm assuming it's English. It did have pins for a pump on the top tube, but they seem to have been filed down. There's no gear hanger at the back. Any suggestions from this excellent site, as always, greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

Gerald
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Old 07-09-15, 12:42 PM
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FastJake
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I can't help you with the serial number but if you post some more photos of the whole bike in addition to more detail photos of things like the dropouts, seat cluster, lugs, we might be able to help identify it.

Originally Posted by maiello View Post
I live in England so i'm assuming it's English.
Not a valid assumption. That frame could've easily come from anywhere in Europe, or the world for that matter. Best way to determine country of origin is to figure out the threading. English, French, Italian, etc.
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Old 07-11-15, 07:35 AM
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maiello
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Hi Folks,
Many thanks for the suggestions so far. I've uploaded afew more images. I've a few more to upload, so hopefully this will give a bit more information on what this frame might be. The code on the bottom bracket does match that of the forks 64025. MAny thanks for all your help.
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Old 07-11-15, 07:40 AM
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maiello
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These images may also help. There does seem to be a flat part to the steerer thread (similar to that on my Peugeot) but the bobble on the spacer, part of the headset, appears to be smaller as though cut for the groove on tan English threaded steerer. The handlebars are 3TTT competizione, the weinmann 730 and looked to be stamped '84'. The dropouts are just pressed steel with nothing on them. There was a rear cable guide on top of the bottom bracket for the rear derailleur but that has been sawn off. No brand on the quill stem. Hope all of that is helpful. Many thanks.
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Old 08-16-15, 02:30 PM
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I really enjoy "mystery" frames!
Here's my 2p: It's British, mid-1960's, from a large maker; Holdsworthy, Falcon, Carleton, etc. and an Mid-level model.
Why British: Headset threading & probably BB threading, English BB: XXCAMXX COMPONENTS (X is unreadable for me)
Why mid-1960's: Absence of Braze-ons; cable guides etc. Curved Brake Bridge, Lamp Bracket on Fork. Italianate styling in the lugs and crown - not necessarily an Italian maker
Why Large maker: Lengthy serial number, (Imagine Les Ephgrave saying to himself "I'm going to start my serial numbers from 60,000!" That's a lot of punch-work!) The Frame shows indifferent workmanship. The BB shell shows XXCAMXX (BOCAMA?) COMPONENTS, The first 2 characters have been ground-off so that a perpendicular number could be stamped.
Mid-Level model: The dropouts are stamped-steel rather than forged. Yet the lugs appear to be of decent quality.
I would expect the frame to made of decent quality steel, not gas-pipe. The space between the crown and brake bridge seems to indicate 27 x 1.25" tires with room for fenders.

The frame has had an early 90's style respray. The paint looks freshish (although thick), yet the components look tired.
Frames are likely to be repainted if they have some value. It might be a respectable frame - I quite like it!

It seems also that it's been assembled to squeeze-out the most performance that is possible for a parts-bin bike.
The pump pegs have been cut-off, the Weinmann calipers are very light, the Kalloy stem does the job, the drillium seat-post is charming with its wandering holes. The stem, BB, Cranks and HS seem to have come from an 80's bike, but would've been a nice step-up from the steel stem & cranks of the original bike.

I'd measure the centre-centre distance of the head-tube holes. This tells you which headbadges would fit.
Also measure the BB centre to top of top tube. It should be an even inch or half inch (ie 21.0", 21.5"). The seat-tube measurement is significant since some makes/models were only offered in specific increments ie. 20", 21", 22" and so on.

Please note that none of the points above indicate British, Mid 60's, Large-maker, mid quality. But all the facts taken together do.

So, Look at Claud Butler, Holdsworth, Falcon catalogs from the 1960's.
It's Noice! Please tell us what you find.
John
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Old 08-16-15, 02:36 PM
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I forgot, The Cinelli tape on the top & down tubes, near the head tube may be masking the damage from a crash. Please inspect these areas carefully.
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Old 08-16-15, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cbutler View Post
Holdsworthy, ... Carlton, etc. and a Mid-level model.
Totally agree; the S/N is in the same locations/format (and the lugwork very similar) to the Holdsworthy I had a few years ago.
Very good ideas for using headbadge and seat tube measurements as identifiers...
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Old 08-23-15, 11:04 AM
  #8  
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Hi maiello,

I believe your frame (#64025) is a c. 1973 Claud Butler produced by Holdsworthy factory. I have collected a bunch of numbers from this era in trying to sort out date of my own '68 Claud Butler. Turns out Clauds during '65-'76 era had a distinct numbering system from strict Holdsworthy models. See https://www.flickr.com/photos/767624...7648723035788/

I would guess your Claud is likely an Electron Super 5 which I think was basically the same "economical" Holdsworthy frame as the Holdsworth Equipe. Built with Reynolds plain gauge tubing, Prugnat Italian style lugs, braze-ons and a lack of integral derailleur hanger similar to your own. Most of this info I have gleaned from N.Kilgariff's site. You might want to check seat post diameter. From memory the head badge holes should be 2&1/4" apart.

D

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