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Bottechia Cromor, just fixed up, need price

Old 07-13-15, 12:09 PM
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megabix
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Bottechia Cromor, just fixed up, need price

So I inherited this Bottechia bike from a co worker. It was not in ride-able condition when I got it so I took it to a pretty reputable shop here in NYC and they told me that it was a somewhat valuable vintage frame and seat post. In light of this I had them fix it up to the tune of around $400. It's got new tires, new cables, brake levers, etc. The bike rides like a dream but might be a bit too dreamy for a noob like myself. Any idea how much I can reasonably expect to get for it on craigslist or ebay?



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Old 07-13-15, 12:48 PM
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Where are the drive side photos???
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Old 07-13-15, 01:49 PM
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@megabix - I think you spent more than it will bring on the market. I would be surprised if you could break even. I don't know the NYC market so am not qualified to offer an opinion. I have a 1973 Bottecchia Giro d'italia that might be worth $200 in its current condition and it is the same frame as the top of the line Professional. The difference being the parts hung on it.
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Old 07-13-15, 02:58 PM
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Bottechia's were some of the finest mass produced bicycles ever made on the planet. Mostly equipped with Campagnolo group set and, Columbus frames. I totally disagree with SJX426's opinion. These bikes bottom out around $600 and go up from there. You shouldn't have any problem selling that bike.
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Old 07-13-15, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ramzilla View Post
Bottechia's were some of the finest mass produced bicycles ever made on the planet. Mostly equipped with Campagnolo group set and, Columbus frames. I totally disagree with SJX426's opinion. These bikes bottom out around $600 and go up from there. You shouldn't have any problem selling that bike.
Which Columbus frame set and which Campagnolo group?

Don't get all googlly eyed just because the bike has a Columbus decal and partial CampI group.

Sure if this was a SL frame with Super Record group yeah it might be worth $600+ easy. However CroMor is about as low as you get on the Columbus sale and the ditto for the partial Victory group. Since @megabix happens to be in NYC he might get lucky and get her $400 bucks back.

I just wonder what the shop did for $400? A complete overhaul? or just a quick rubdown and some new brake cables and pads. I am not familiar w/ Universal but I wonder if the shop took of the original pads/holders and put some bargain basement ones on instead.

It looks like a nice bike but for $400 a lot of people are expecting index shifting. I mean I have having trouble selling a SP frame with mostly newer CampI and barely got a few nibbles at $500


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Old 07-13-15, 03:18 PM
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$200 too low an estimate. $600 is too high.

Not all Bottechias are made equal. Cromor was lower end in Colombus' line. Anyone know what campy components those are?

and $400 for an overhaul seems extremly exorbetant.
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Old 07-13-15, 04:02 PM
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I could be wrong but they look like Victory or Triomphe, Universal brakes
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Old 07-13-15, 04:21 PM
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Hi Megabix, I'm in NYC too.

I think the bike's worth in the vicinity of $400.

A $400 overhaul is exorbitant. I'm curious what they did, and what shop did it. Can you tell us?

From the photos, it doesn't look to me like you got a new chain or freewheel. If that's true, I doubt they did the bearings in the bottom bracket, hubs or headset. So my guess (and I hope I'm wrong) is they charged you $400 for new cables, housings, pads, tires and a tuneup. I guess they replaced the brake levers, too, for some reason? What was wrong with the others? If they were original It's a shame to have removed them. They didn't even do a good job with the cable housings, the one to the rear is way too short.

I dunno. It looks to me like you got ripped off. Sorry.

edit: It also looks to me like the fork may be a little bent. Did the shop say anything to you about that?
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Old 07-13-15, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
Depending on tire choice, you can get up to $400 here. Local shops charge $250 for a FULL service, plus parts. And that's in western NC, not NYC. For the $250, you get a full tear down to the frame, and they clean, inspect, and lube everything. So its thorough for sure. Parts spending can ratchet up QUICK (they are kind of counting on that, as a complete tear down to the frame and rebuild is a lot of work for $250 with shop rates running about $70/hour).

Those look like new X pattern (cheap) brake pads. I by those for under $1 a pair. They work fine, but are nothing special. 20 pair for $18.40: Jagwire "X-Caliper" Pads, Caliper, Card/20 Pairs

Kind of looks like new bar tape ($5 cost, they will charge you $20 for it), plus the new brake levers, housings and cables. Chain and freewheel look old.



Yeah, I think it could get that high--but based on what I'm seeing, I don't think it should have. I really doubt this thing was torn down.
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Old 07-13-15, 06:30 PM
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In the future, ask questions and get educated first, then spend as you wish. Adjust the rear brake cable, it looks wayyyy to taught at the bend from the seat tube to the caliper. Make sure to take photos of all the Campagnolo bits on the bike.

The bike is vintage, white, and Italian, all popular attributes in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Maybe Megabix can recover his investment and then some! If you don't want the bike, try listing it at $575 and move it down $25 every 2 weeks. It appears to be a 57cm frame, so give the size and suggested rider height for the bike, 5'9-6'0.
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Old 07-13-15, 07:42 PM
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"Wow, cool bike! It's really valuable. We can definitely fix it up for you. It'll cost $400 but that's no problem considering how much the bike is worth."

It's an old trick. The way to defeat it is to ask the shop, "if it's so valuable how much will YOU give me for it?" That will always stop them dead in their tracks. The opposite trick is where they tell you the bike is trashed and you need to buy a new one.

Sorry, but you got ripped off. Rear brake housing is way too short. Makes me wonder what else is wrong. Chain and freewheel look old. Not replaced for $400? Give me a break. Did they at least overhaul the bearings?

The good news is that the bike is probably worth about $400 so you can at least get your money back.
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Old 07-14-15, 12:27 AM
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All the "after I did it" advice is a help, but not too much. With that in mind, take the time to learn a bit about vintage bicycle quality, and you will be better prepared to look at and evaluate any vintage bicycle that you run across. As for that Bottecchia...

It is worth about what you paid to have it tuned up at the bicycle shop. Yes, they saw you coming and took advantage of you, but is that not the way of business, in just about every level, these days?

So, worry not and learn from this experience. If flipping bicycles is your interest, you want to work with low end bicycles that cost very little to buy and repair. And, if repair work is not your thing, fogedaboudit - vintage bicycles will always cost too much for you to make a dollar, or two on. And...

Fixin em up is a big part of the fun, in my opinion,
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Old 07-14-15, 12:42 AM
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At the the very least, demand your Campanolo brake levers back.
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Old 07-14-15, 06:23 AM
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Paint and rust issues will keep the price under $400. Looks like they cut the rear brake cable too short.
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Old 07-14-15, 08:41 AM
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Thank you all for your responses. Just seeing the back and forth here really informs my thinking about the potential value of this bike. @trailangel , I have attached more photos of the drive side.

@lostarchitect, @oddjob2, @FastJake, @randyjawa, et al, thank you guys for your feedback on this! I don't believe that I got ripped off exactly... I actually have a friend who works in the shop and I'm fairly certain he wouldn't let me get duped or misled intentionally. I will run some of the comments you've made past this guy before I out the shop on this forum, just out of respect... I will certainly inquire about the back break line. By the way, the break levers were removed because the metal was corroded and the tech thought it was unsafe to ride in that condition. I did get the original levers back and have them in my possession.

I assumed when I agreed to the work that I was paying a premium for the reasons that many of you have stated... parts are expensive (especially after retail mark up), labor is expensive, and ABOVE ALL, I am in New York City, where everything is significantly more expensive. I don't have the time, space or expertise to do the work myself so I left the work to professionals. That said, nobody wants to pay for bad work so I am glad that I put this up here to get the input of this community.

I'll follow up after I speak with the shop. Thank you all again (and please keep the feedback coming).

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Old 07-14-15, 09:18 AM
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They didn't even pull the crankset to disassemble and then clean the chainrings. Did they service the bottom bracket bearing at all? For $400? Wow. OP, you did get cheated by any reasonable standard. Have the shop detail what work it did for your $400 by producing an invoice of work performed and separating labor and material charges. Your friend did not protect you from predatory behavior on the part of that shop.
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Old 07-14-15, 09:28 AM
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I get that NYC is going to have a premium. But the lingering question in my mind is whether the bearings were serviced or not. Parts cost is close to zero but quite a bit of labor is involved. Ask them - were the headset, bottom bracket, and both hubs re-greased? That will determine whether you paid a bit too much or got massively screwed.
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Old 07-14-15, 12:00 PM
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For all the fuss about the brake housing, it looks like there is a fairly big loop at the handlebars - the housing just needs to be pulled back a 1/2 inch.
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Old 07-14-15, 01:53 PM
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@megabix, good luck!

If it doesn't work out with the shop, PM me. I have the tools needed.

edit: actually with only two posts you can't PM me. You can email me at my username at gmail dot com if you want.
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Old 07-14-15, 06:05 PM
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Legitimate bike stores give an itemized receipt of the work they've done.

It's quite evident there is a lot of surface dirt still present. If they didnt even bother to wipe that off, you know theres no way the bike was actually dissasembled. And based on the condition of the other components, I highly question their motives for removing the brake levers. At $400, you'd expect no less than $100-150 of new components.....so where is all of that??? Cables/housing, bar tape and levers dont rack up that high (chain looks old).

Please DO tell us the bike stores name. And please DO post pictures of the brake levers when you get them back.
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Old 07-14-15, 07:49 PM
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Commenting on Cromor, I don't see it as 'low end' tubing. It's more 'mid-range'.. Cromor is seamed 25 Cr Mo 4 chromoly (the same chemistry as 4130) cold drawn and butted with the seam weld so ****geneous that it is virtually the same as seamless. Because it is seamed, it's less expensive to make than seamless tubing

In the 1980s, lower end Columbus tubing would have been Zeta (plain carbon steel straight gauge tubing with 0.9mm walls) and Aelle (carbon-manganese alloy). The high end Columbus tubing like EL, EL-OS, Niva OR, and MAX were made with a chromium-molybdenum alloy containing some vanadium and nobium which Columbus called "Nivacrom"... SL, SP, SLX, SPX, MS, and TSX was made with a chromium-molybdenum alloy with some vanadium which Columbus called "Cyclex". Cromor and Gara are both 25 Cr Mo 4 chromium molybdenum alloy identical to AISI 4130 chromoly.

Here are the ultimate tensile strength (UTS) and yield strength (YS) of the various alloys from Columbus spec sheets:

Nivacrom: UTS=1200 MPa, YS=1000 MPa, Minimum elongation=12%

Cyclex UTS=900 MPa, YS=830 MPa, Minimum elongation=12%

25 Cr Mo 4 (Cromor): UTS=800 MPa, YS=760 MPa, Minimum elongation=12%

Carbon-Manganese (Aelle): UTS=700 MPa, YS=650 MPa, Minimum elongation=12%

Plain Carbon Steel (Zeta): Not specified, but 1030 carbon steel (0.3% carbon by weight) has a UTS of 525 MPa, a YS of 440 MPa, and a minimum elongation of 12%.

Because Cromor doesn't have quite the tensile and yield strength as tubing made with Nivacrom and Cyclex, the walls are a little thicker and the tubeset is a little heavier. For example, the catalogs list the weight of an uncut Nivacrom EL tubeset as 1670g, Cyclex SL tubeset as 1925g, Cromor as 2190g, Aelle as 2345g, and Zeta as 2440g.

Remember, though, that since all steels have virtually the same modulus of elasticity, or "stiffness", the thicker walls make a frame built with Cromor stiffer than a frame built with EL or SL assuming the frames have the same geometry and are the same size.

In February, 1996, Bicycle Guide ran an article comparing identical framesets made with different Columbus tubesets, and the results are interesting.

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Old 07-14-15, 08:35 PM
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Appraisal: This bike as shown and described by rip-off bike shop. $175

Inquiries? I often wonder why people love that city and pay extra for everything.

Advice: Find another New Yoko to dump it off on.
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Old 07-15-15, 01:19 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by zazenzach View Post
Legitimate bike stores give an itemized receipt of the work they've done.

It's quite evident there is a lot of surface dirt still present. If they didnt even bother to wipe that off, you know theres no way the bike was actually dissasembled. And based on the condition of the other components, I highly question their motives for removing the brake levers. At $400, you'd expect no less than $100-150 of new components.....so where is all of that??? Cables/housing, bar tape and levers dont rack up that high (chain looks old).

Please DO tell us the bike stores name. And please DO post pictures of the brake levers when you get them back.
New tires and tubes. I bet they get $10 per tube, $40 per tire. Plus installation. True the wheels, another $30-40.

Those brake levers may be $50. Bar tape, $30-40. And the labor to install. What does it cost for wrapping bars, $30?

Cables, $10 ea. plus install. I could see $60-70 labor to do 4 cables and get derailleurs adjusted.

Edit: Then you have to top it off with $30-40 in sales tax. Hmm. Is labor taxed, not sure.

You gotta think bike shop prices. I stay away from bike shops. Nothing in there I need or want.

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Old 07-15-15, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by big chainring View Post
New tires and tubes. I bet they get $10 per tube, $40 per tire. Plus installation. True the wheels, another $30-40.

Those brake levers may be $50. Bar tape, $30-40. And the labor to install. What does it cost for wrapping bars, $30?

Cables, $10 ea. plus install. I could see $60-70 labor to do 4 cables and get derailleurs adjusted.

Edit: Then you have to top it off with $30-40 in sales tax. Hmm. Is labor taxed, not sure.

You gotta think bike shop prices. I stay away from bike shops. Nothing in there I need or want.

From a New Yorker: most of that makes sense but not the bar tape cost or labor to install it. Most shops also only charge $5 for tubes. Cables also are not $10 each. Let's say the following:

$10: 2 tubes
$80: 2 tires
$15: bar tape
$20: 4 cables
$20: cable housings
$10: cheap brake pads
$140: 2 hours labor @$70/hr

Well, that's $275 before taxes. Damn. Still not $400 though.
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Old 07-15-15, 06:47 PM
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I don't think I have seen $5 tubes in 10 years.

Anyway, it adds up.

Electricians charge $7.50 for a $1.50 outlet or switch. That's for the part, installation xtra.

Car mechanics charge $400 per axle for brake jobs.

Being somewhat of a handyman myself, I once charged a customer $125 to change out some light bulbs. Crazy, but the husband was a doctor. So what's he billing at, $1000 an hour?

Oh boy, always comes down to dentists. Dentists are the kings. I think they are at about $100 a minute. That's the biggest racket going.

Maybe the whole psychiatric field too.

My dad told me, stay away from hospitals and doctors.I try my best.

So the OP'S $400 was money well spent.

Last edited by big chainring; 07-15-15 at 06:55 PM.
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