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Trying to ID lugged road frame with Campy DOs

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Trying to ID lugged road frame with Campy DOs

Old 11-14-16, 07:52 PM
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MightyTour
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Trying to ID lugged road frame with Campy DOs

Friend gave this to me. It's light, nice lugs, Campy dropouts that for some reason scream 80s to me. No visible serial number. For some reason I have the feeling this might be a high end Gitane from the late 80s, but I'm not sure. The lugs certainly look distinctive. Any ideas?

https://imgur.com/a/1Xeyd
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Old 11-14-16, 08:02 PM
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the post reappeared - Comment deleted

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Old 11-15-16, 09:10 AM
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A few things you can check to narrow down what you have are: Look for internal spirals inside the fork steer tube and the tubes where they join at the bottom bracket. Pull the fork and see if there is a serial number on it. Measure the seat post diameter. Best of luck!
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Old 11-15-16, 09:19 AM
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I think there's something a little screwy going on, because I also couldn't see my post text earlier (now I can). In any case, here's what I originally wrote.

" Friend gave this to me. It's light, nice lugs, Campy dropouts that for some reason scream 80s to me. No visible serial number. For some reason I have the feeling this might be a high end Gitane from the late 80s, but I'm not sure. The lugs certainly look distinctive. Any ideas?

Yellow Frame - Album on Imgur

"
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Old 11-15-16, 09:25 AM
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-----

This is an interesting frame; will look forward to reading what the experts have to write about it.

Lugset is BOCAMA Competition 78.

Frame ends set is Campagnolo #1060 "Corsa."

Seat binder is ALGI (France).

With respect to dating think we are closer to 1974.

Regarding a possible gypsy girl identity - if that she be then our @verktyg is sure to know.


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Last edited by juvela; 11-15-16 at 11:07 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 11-15-16, 11:43 AM
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My money's on a custom frame... Those lugs date from the late 70's.

The UK was the primary market for Campy 1060 stamped steel vertical dropouts.

1975 was the last Campy catalog showing the 1060 vertical dropouts. By that time, Shimano and Suntour were offering forged vertical dropouts plus Simplex and Huret produced them for years.

The 1973-74 Raleigh RRA was the only production bike that I'm aware of that used those dropouts!

There is an off chance that it's a Raleigh Team frame. If so, Raleighs had the serial numbers stamped into the BB.

verktyg

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Old 11-15-16, 12:12 PM
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Thanks very much Chas.!

We still have not been told threading...


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Last edited by juvela; 11-15-16 at 12:13 PM. Reason: spellin'
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Old 11-15-16, 12:30 PM
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I will try and figure out threading soon. I am 3000 miles away from the frame at the moment but can have my buddy pull the BB and fork this weekend. I think I did see a tiny bit of a serial number stamped on the BB, but not enough to tell what number it was. The yellow paint is a pretty sloppy job and pretty thick, so I believe it's obscuring the number, if any.
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Old 11-15-16, 09:17 PM
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Nice pointy lugs on it. Sloped forks probably means late 70's. From what I see with your bike, Maybe I will have to look a little closer when there is no ID frame/bike with Campy drops and components. That being said I have seen some no name ducks with nice components. Not being able to ID a bike can be pain in ass and hurt value also.
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Old 11-15-16, 10:05 PM
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Mercian used lugs like that and the seat stay caps/ends look like some of the bikes in their catalogs from the 70s. Search for "mercian 70s" and you'll find a catalog page with lugs on a King of Mercia frame (which appears to be about the same shade of yellow) that look pretty much exactly like those on the yellow bike. The Mercian brake bridges look like they might be a match as well. The fork doesn't seem to match, but forks come and go. Absence of brazed cable guides probably would help date the frame, but maybe the brazings were an option. If it is a Mercian, they might be able to help with ID and dating and repair, if it's worth it.

Been thinking of buying a new English frame and have been looking at the Bob Jackson and Mercian sites and when I saw the lugs on the yellow frame, it struck a bell -- loud and hard.

Last edited by desconhecido; 11-15-16 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 11-15-16, 10:53 PM
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Seat post diameter?
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Old 11-16-16, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
My money's on a custom frame... Those lugs date from the late 70's.

The UK was the primary market for Campy 1060 stamped steel vertical dropouts.

1975 was the last Campy catalog showing the 1060 vertical dropouts. By that time, Shimano and Suntour were offering forged vertical dropouts plus Simplex and Huret produced them for years.

The 1973-74 Raleigh RRA was the only production bike that I'm aware of that used those dropouts!

There is an off chance that it's a Raleigh Team frame. If so, Raleighs had the serial numbers stamped into the BB.

verktyg

Chas.
The bicycle in your image does not have Campagnolo dropouts, and I've rarely seen these vertical ones on UK Raleighs.

Team frame - qualify your terms here. The yellow frame is not an SBDU, seat stay caps are all wrong - or it's a type I've never seen (I've authored articles here in the UK on the SBDU). Seat stay dropout junction all wrong too.

Those lugs, standard on the Lightweight Unit built Raleigh Road Ace from the mid to late 1980s - fork crown too. I have this type of crown on my very early - Roberts.

Jon.

Last edited by hobbs1951; 11-16-16 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 11-16-16, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
The bicycle in your image does not have Campagnolo dropouts
Jon, yes it does. Blow the seventh picture up on the poster's link. Campagnolo.
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Old 11-16-16, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by exxongraftek View Post
Jon, yes it does. Blow the seventh picture up on the poster's link. Campagnolo.
Was not referring to the yellow bike, was referring to the white one...perhaps mistakenly...the poster's point wasn't very clear.

Jon.
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Old 11-16-16, 10:05 PM
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And apparently, neither was my understanding.
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Old 11-17-16, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
The bicycle in your image does not have Campagnolo dropouts, and I've rarely seen these vertical ones on UK Raleighs.
Au contraire mon frere

As been pointed out the dropouts on the yellow frame in question are Campy 1060 stamped steel vertical dropouts and...

My 1973 Raleigh RRA does have Campy vertical dropouts - see last closeup that I added.

Also Raleigh used them on Time Trial Special frames in the mid 70's. I have a Raleigh flyer somewhere showing a frame similar to the one below with those dropouts.

Links to a 1978 Raleigh SBDU Time Trial Special with Campy 1060 "drillium" vertical dropouts owned by Peter Kohler who has a Google group devoted to Raleigh Team bikes. See attached pictures below.

ipernity: 1978 Raleigh SBDU Time Trial Special - by Peter Kohler
ipernity: 1978 Raleigh SBDU Time Trial Special - by Peter Kohler


I have 2 bikes with Campy 1060 vertical dropouts, both British built: my 1973 Raleigh RRA which is pictured above and a 1975 Alpine frame built by Tom Board.

Those dropouts were popular in the UK because they made installing and removing the rear wheel on Time Trail and Criterium frames with short chainstays easy.

The well made ones had 1mm thick washers with a 10mm hole brazed to the insides or outsides of the dropouts. 10mm slots were cut into the washers to line up with the dropout axle slots.

The reason for this was the 1060 dropouts were about 1mm narrower than standard forged Campy dropouts. This allowed swapping a rear wheel without having to adjust the quick release.


Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
Team frame - qualify your terms here. The yellow frame is not an SBDU, seat stay caps are all wrong - or it's a type I've never seen (I've authored articles here in the UK on the SBDU). Seat stay dropout junction all wrong too.

Those lugs, standard on the Lightweight Unit built Raleigh Road Ace from the mid to late 1980s - fork crown too. I have this type of crown on my very early - Roberts.

Jon.
My 1974 Raleigh Team SBDU frame, serial number SB10 has the same kind of seat stay caps and fork crown as the yellow frame. Pictures are the original eBay photos from 2006 so they are not that great.

I thew out Raleigh Team frame out as a remote possibility... maybe a frame that had been repaired???

About 7-8+ years ago there was a SBDU frame floating around the US that had the rear triangle crushed in shipping.

After a closer look at the photos, I agree the work on the fork ends and dropouts is rather shoddy and the gap between the brake bridge and seat stay (2nd picture from the top in OP) would have never got out on the shop at SBDU.

Let's go back to a custom built frame...

verktyg

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Attached Images
File Type: jpg
RaleighTeam1.jpg (101.0 KB, 108 views)
File Type: jpg
RaleighTeam2.jpg (93.8 KB, 108 views)
File Type: jpg
RaleighTeamBB-SN.jpg (55.0 KB, 109 views)
File Type: jpg
RaleighRRA1973- 005.jpg (92.9 KB, 108 views)
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Last edited by verktyg; 11-17-16 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 11-17-16, 08:47 AM
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Thanks, Chas, made my crappy morning a tad less so!
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Old 11-17-16, 01:19 PM
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Jon. -

Here is another closeup photo of the dropout on a 1973 Raleigh RRA like the one posted by verktyg -

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/CMAAAO...R4/s-l1600.jpg

Here is the specifications list for this bicycle -

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y...RRA_Page_1.jpg

Here are the ends shown in Campag catalogue nr. 16 of 1967 -

https://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/catalog16.jpg

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Old 11-17-16, 02:00 PM
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Holdsworth also used those dropouts in the late 60s/early 70s.
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Old 11-18-16, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
Au contraire mon frere

As been pointed out the dropouts on the yellow frame in question are Campy 1060 stamped steel vertical dropouts and...

My 1973 Raleigh RRA does have Campy vertical dropouts - see last closeup that I added.

Also Raleigh used them on Time Trial Special frames in the mid 70's. I have a Raleigh flyer somewhere showing a frame similar to the one below with those dropouts.

Links to a 1978 Raleigh SBDU Time Trial Special with Campy 1060 "drillium" vertical dropouts owned by Peter Kohler who has a Google group devoted to Raleigh Team bikes. See attached pictures below.

I have 2 bikes with Campy 1060 vertical dropouts, both British built: my 1973 Raleigh RRA which is pictured above and a 1975 Alpine frame built by Tom Board.

Those dropouts were popular in the UK because they made installing and removing the rear wheel on Time Trail and Criterium frames with short chainstays easy.

My 1974 Raleigh Team SBDU frame, serial number SB10 has the same kind of seat stay caps and fork crown as the yellow frame. Pictures are the original eBay photos from 2006 so they are not that great.

I thew out Raleigh Team frame out as a remote possibility... maybe a frame that had been repaired???

Chas.
Hello.

I think you misunderstood my original point (or I did not make it very clear); what I did write was that I had rarely seen this type of dropout*. That you have two or three does not make them commonplace. My own SBDU (ordered new directly from Ilkeston, I've spent time in the SBDU workshop, and know a few of the former employees) is not a TT frame so it has"normal"Campag dropouts - mine is one of the last built from the 531P tubeset.

I am also familiar with TT practices here in the UK, but BiTD these drop outs were still relatively rare. In conclusion, I have seen Kohler's bicycle, and FYI here is a link to an article authored by myself on the Classic Lightweights site -

Raleigh SBDU

I've also written a book on the SBDU, but I don't claim to be any kind of expert, especially on the US cycle scene and certainly not the Bay Area; although I have worked in the USA quite a lot over the years.

J.

*I have an photo archive of SBDU frames...I'll look just out of curiousity for the vertical dropouts.

Last edited by hobbs1951; 11-18-16 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 11-19-16, 04:32 PM
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Dropouts

Hi Guys those dropouts and lugs are also I think on my thread "Mystery Bike" can you check it out and see what you think?
I got an email from Bob Jackson which says they think its not their bike based on build and serial number.
But the crown fork on my bike is much different.

Thank you
Carl
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