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Noname frame, probably low range, any ideas of origin?

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Noname frame, probably low range, any ideas of origin?

Old 01-03-17, 10:38 AM
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Jantaras
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Noname frame, probably low range, any ideas of origin?

Hello,

I bought an unfinished project in Europe, mainly for the parts. It frame is probably too big for me, I am planning to build a bike for winter roads and test it a little.

I'd like to know more about it, if its possible.
The seller said the bike was used by a pro/semi pro at the local race (races are not very popular here) in 90's. It was built with mixed parts: Campagnolo (Nuovo)record bb and crankset (53/47 rings ), Gran Sport RD and shifters, Huret FD. Shimano 600 EX brake calipers and 600 (also probably EX) brake levers, Mavic Monthlery road rims, Shimano hubs. Noname headset.

The frame itself is quite rusty, weighs 2700g (one headset race and rust included). No original fork. The seatpost installed was too small 26,2mm, I believe the original should be 26,4mm. No markings on rear dropouts or bb-shell. There's a serial number on the headtube 4B29532. The bb is italian threaded. No rifles in the tubes, just welding seams. Not sure the paint is original.

I believe it is a low range frame... Asking just to make sure thats not a super rare early cinelli prototype frame (not worthy for a restoration), what can you say about it's origin? Italian frame? Amateurs welding exercise in his garage? Early/late 70's? Any more info?

Thanks!
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Old 01-03-17, 11:53 AM
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I don't have any specific info but I would agree that it is low end. Square lugs at seat cluster and BB. Fender eyelets on the rear dropout also point away from a racer frame. I don't know what to make of the seam on BB shell. Is the top tube joint to the seat lug crooked or is that a trick of the light?
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Old 01-03-17, 01:03 PM
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Frame constructed with Agrati bulge-formed head of the "AM" series pattern.

Have not before seen a welded shell with this pattern to the weld. Wonder if it be the result of post-weld dressing.

The square cut shell sockets and seat lug are certainly indicative of a low end frame yet it displays forged dropouts with adjusters. Dropouts are likely Agrati "Corsa" series. Chainstay stop looks to be a Campag 621.

Seat lug and shell appear to be Agrati "Sport" series items.

When combined with the "bullet" seat stays we are certainly in Italy here.

Several different Italian makers have employed this arrangement of stamping the serial in to the front face of a headlug.

Odd that there appears to be a single fastener hole for the fitment of a head emblem. Does it look like there may be a second one below it which has been filled in?

Edit: Oops, see that there is a hole shown near lower end of head tube on the side. Evidently the head emblem was of a tall narrow triangular shape. This could prove a helpful clue leading to identification...

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Last edited by juvela; 01-03-17 at 01:09 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 01-03-17, 01:36 PM
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Can you figure out the bottom bracket threading? That will help a bit in determining the origin.

I rarely find low-end frames with adjuster screws and a derailleur hanger in the rear dropout.

But, nothing else screams quality about he frame and build.

I assume the bottom bracket shell began as a flat sheet of steel, had the lugs pressed out, then was wrapped into a circle and welded. But, I've never seen one quite like that.

Anyway, if the bike fits, use it as your winter beater bike (as long as you don't spend too much building it up)
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Old 01-03-17, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post

Odd that there appears to be a single fastener hole for the fitment of a head emblem. Does it look like there may be a second one below it which has been filled in?

Edit: Oops, see that there is a hole shown near lower end of head tube on the side. Evidently the head emblem was of a tall narrow triangular shape. This could prove a helpful clue leading to identification...

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One of the badges that would fit would be a Monark badge.



I'm seeing some newer bikes with the triangle badge in profile. But, not the exact frame as yours.

Jan?s Monark 318 | Old Ten Speed Gallery
Jan V.?s 1970 Monark Ultra Lyx and 1985 Mustang Update (Sweden) | Old Ten Speed Gallery
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...bike-long.html

With some luck, you'll have a Swiss bottom bracket (like a French one, but with reverse threads on one side).

Oops, not Swiss, Swedish.

Last edited by CliffordK; 01-03-17 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 01-03-17, 03:46 PM
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The serial number format and location is consistent with a mass volume Bianchi from 1974. Bianchi was known to use these Agrati lugs during this period and the frame characteristics match the era. With the exception of the badge mounting holes, the frame is a good match for the Bianchi Rekord 74 club racer. The badge hole geometry suggests that it may have been branded as one of the lesser brands owned by Bianchi or possibly a contract manufactured, private label brand.
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Old 01-03-17, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
One of the badges that would fit would be a Monark badge.



I'm seeing some newer bikes with the triangle badge in profile. But, not the exact frame as yours.

Jan?s Monark 318 | Old Ten Speed Gallery
Jan V.?s 1970 Monark Ultra Lyx and 1985 Mustang Update (Sweden) | Old Ten Speed Gallery
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...bike-long.html

With some luck, you'll have a Swiss bottom bracket (like a French one, but with reverse threads on one side).

Oops, not Swiss, Swedish.
Monark was one of the first names I considered as well as have owned two or three; but had to reject it as poster has stated that shell's threading is Italian. While Monark builds with ISO/BSC dimension tubesets they employ metric "french" threaded shells. A quirk of this marque. Also, have never seen them make use of Agrati framebuilding bits.

If there was once a Monark head emblem residing there it must have been fitted subsequent to manufacture.


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Old 01-03-17, 08:00 PM
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Wow, thanks, thats a ton of information!
Now I just have to google for some frame part translations, because I have no clue about them

The top tube should be straight so it's "bent" just in the picture, but I'll check it again tomorrow.

The bb shell has Italian threads. The "original" bb was Campagnolos 36x24, also a new Shimano's cartridge unit BB UN55 70mm with Italian threading fits it, so I believe it is Italian (I knew nothing about Swedish threading bb's, is it that similar to Italian and I or previous owner have cross-threaded it to Italian?)

Interestingly, Sweden is here in the neighborhood, so it may very well be a Monark (are there Monarks with Italian bb:s?) (I also have a Crescent Competition 12, as far as I found on the internet, all or, at least, most of them had BSA or French threading, but as far as I remember, mine has Italian threads. Well, have to check that too...).

Could it be a Bianchi rebadged to Monark?

Also, looks like the seat tube has some sort of wall/septum inside, the septum is more or less at he same level as one would attach the front derailleur. At first I thought there are thrash or rust there, but the the septum is strong, looks like steel... Wonder is it some kind of a cover for bb-bearings?
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Old 01-03-17, 11:57 PM
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Bianchigirll is one better members at identifying Bianchi stuff. Perhaps she'll chime in.

Sorry about the confusion of bottom brackets.

Swiss Bottom brackets are the same as French bottom brackets (35 x 1), except the right cup is left threaded for Swiss, and both cups are right threaded for French.

Sweden would use... something else

Italian bottom brackets are the largest of the threaded bottom brackets (36x1), so it is sometimes possible to re-thread a French, Swiss, or English BB to Italian.

However, Italian bottom brackets are also wider than typical other ones. So most bottom brackets are 68mm wide, but Italian ones are 70mm wide.

So, if one rethreads a French bottom bracket to Italian, one would get the radius cut 1/2mm deeper, and still have a 68mm bottom bracket.
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Old 01-04-17, 12:40 PM
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Bianchi serial question for T-Mar -

Have noticed that when serials are placed in headlugs they are sometimes in upper and sometimes in lower. Is there any significance to this, is one placement earlier/later?

Also most of the headlug serial Bianchis seem to be Chiorda builds, as we have here. Yet there are some high quality Bianchi Bianchi models with this arrangement as well.

Is the arrangement used on some of the sub-marques as well, such as Normano?

Thank you for any information.

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Old 01-04-17, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
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Bianchi serial question for T-Mar -

Have noticed that when serials are placed in headlugs they are sometimes in upper and sometimes in lower. Is there any significance to this, is one placement earlier/later?

Also most of the headlug serial Bianchis seem to be Chiorda builds, as we have here. Yet there are some high quality Bianchi Bianchi models with this arrangement as well.

Is the arrangement used on some of the sub-marques as well, such as Normano?

Thank you for any information.

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I have yet to come across a case of a Bianchi serial number stamped on the lower lug, so if there is any significance, I'm not aware of the chronology or rationale.

I've been operating on the premise that this format indicates a Bianchi manufactured product, as it's been seen on mid-range Bianchi models and varies from the 1980s serial numbers only in location and breaking it into two segments. The Chiorda manufactured product, including the entry level Bianchi, typically have a purely numeric format.

I have yet to come across any cases involving non-eponymous Bianchi manufactured product from the era but we know that Bianchi did not alter their format when contract manufacturing brands during the 1980s.
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Old 01-04-17, 11:12 PM
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Thanks so much T-Mar!

Normano was a b-line Bianchi badge current in the late fifties and early sixties.

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