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Peugeot 12 speed. Help needed with identification...

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Peugeot 12 speed. Help needed with identification...

Old 06-09-17, 11:52 PM
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Peugeot 12 speed. Help needed with identification...

Greetings forum members. I live in New Zealand and have a Peugeot 12 Vitesse which was bought second hand some 30 or more years ago. Sadly and to my shame it’s been in storage underneath my parent’s house for many years and subsequently the condition has deteriorated. The worst problem is the paint and rust, although it’s not so bad that it is unusable. I’m sure the rust can be kept at bay with some preventative treatment.

Condition aside, I am trying to work out the age of the bike. I’ve scoured the internet and found information about working out the year based on the serial number. If I remember rightly, the six and seven digit versions signifying 1970s and 1980s respectively. I had thought my bike could be a 1980s model however it has several identification numbers which seem to follow a different system. The only thing in keeping is the number 84 which is on both wheel hubs.

I’m hoping someone might be able to check the details I’ve found and help me interpret them.
I’ll included some photos in case they are helpful. All the details I have been able to find are listed below.

I’m also interested in knowing if this bike is worth restoring. I don’t think it is particularly rare or top of the range but then again I might be mistaken. It will be good to hear what others think.


Peugeot 12 Vitesse

Identification numbers:

Frame underside crank: 11965
Beneath seat post: 73osL (note: the ‘o’ is lowercase and raised with an underline.)
Upper head tube: 7330

Nothing immediately visible on forks.

Brakes: Shimano 600

Front derailleur: Simplex

Rear derailleur: Simplex Spidel S061

Crank set: Shimano Golden Arrow FC-S105 (fluted) Year stamp 'HE' 1983
Gears: Shimano 52 HF and Shimano <39>

Pedals: KYUTKOTO Top-Run
Toe straps: Christophe Special

Front Wheel:
Hub id: Maillard 24 84
Rim: Rigida AL1320 700c
Tyre (probably shot!): Panaracet tri-sport kevlar 700k 25c

Rear Wheel: Helico-Matic PAF Maillard
Hub id: 25 84

Handlebars: Franco Italia D852 Guidons Philippe ATAX
Seat: Unicanitor Brevettata Made in Italy Cimeli Milano
Attached Images
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IMG_3757.jpg (94.0 KB, 106 views)
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IMG_3756.jpg (92.5 KB, 103 views)
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IMG_3754.jpg (96.6 KB, 105 views)
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IMG_3753.jpg (94.2 KB, 106 views)
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IMG_3752.jpg (94.1 KB, 105 views)

Last edited by bstrummer; 06-17-17 at 06:02 PM. Reason: Bike part spelling correction
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Old 06-10-17, 03:28 AM
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What does the frame tubing decal on the seat tube say?
Hub numbers 84 indicate a 1984 build, which is consistant with frame graphics.
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Old 06-10-17, 04:57 AM
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Thank you for your advice. Do I understand correctly that you are referring to the frame tube where the seat tube is inserted? The only decal I can see there is the Peugeot lion. I haven't found any code or text.
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Old 06-10-17, 04:11 PM
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I've never seen extra stampings or serial number in that format shown here, so thanks for sharing!!

5 digits on bottom is the # of manufacture for the year. "73°" on the seat tube lug is the degree/angle of the lug but not sure what the 3C is that follows it, nor the 7330 (unless that's 73.3°) on the headtube lug.

I agree with @oddjob2, 1984 is likely date. It was the last year for this decal scheme too, IIRC. Going on that information and what we see in the pictures, we can make an educated guess on the model. I don't see any tubing decals anywhere (Carbolite/HLE/Reynolds 501), which is another potential ID clue, and so is the all-chrome fork, which - by this date - the forks were either all-chrome or no-chrome.

Model tree for this vintage:

P8/P10 variants came with no no chrome fork and Carbolite(+) tubing.
Next step up added all-chrome Carbolite fork, which was called the P11.
Next step up from that adds Reynolds 501 tubing on main triangle, now we're in PH501 territory, or PGN10 for pre-'85 year
85 onward, next step up added Reynolds 501 fork and stays, now PGN10 territory
After that, we get into Reynolds 531 frames, and now we're in PY/PX/PZ territory.

There are some fill-in models some yearsand things change region to region, but that's a general summary of 82-85ish. Based on what I know, educated guess, I'd say this is a P11, which isn't a terribly common model, but still in the lower mid-range.

It's a cool find and honestly, should ride like twice the bike it actually is.

I think oddjob2 and I both have PGN10s (or am I confusing you with Chombi?) and I personally love mine. That and a Moto Jubile Sport are my two primary in-town riders. I wouldn't be crushed if they were nabbed or wrecked, but the ride is damn near as enjoyable as some of my bikes worth way more.

So, in short: Probably a 1984 PH11, and yes, totally worth restoring, but you shouldn't need to do much. Oh, and the crankset isn't stock. You may actually enjoy moving to all 600 running gear (the Weinmann setups for this year range Peugeot were actually pretty damn good, I'd leave that alone)
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Old 06-10-17, 06:26 PM
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Hey, thank you so much for providing such detailed, helpful information francophile! It's good to know that the bike is interesting and my post is appreciated.

I've had another fruitless scan of the bike for model and tubing ids, so your pointers are a great help thanks again. It's good to have some concept of the model and in turn the likely type of frame.

The 5 digits underneath have thrown me and had me wondering about the possibility of the 1984 decals being stuck on an older frame. I read on classic rendezvous dot com that 'Some examples have lower numerical serial numbers while having later decal schemes' and wondered if I might have an example of this. But I have also read that there are serial numbers that don't follow the expected rules.

I always understood the bike was in the lower-mid range but even when I bought it I had no idea what year or model it was. It was just a bike that I liked the look of, was large enough for my height and a pleasure to ride. At least far better than anything I'd been on previously.

It's great to know that you think this is a bike worth restoring. Although I've not been out riding in many years and I don't have a great knowledge of cycle maintenance/mechanics, I do love restoration projects. I'd really like to see this bike looking new again. Just need to decide if it is a project I can realistically take on or if it is time to pass it on to someone else. On the strength of this forum though I have a feeling I might be the one!

This is the wrong forum category to discuss repair issues but I am keen for advice about rust removal and repainting. This bike looks good from a distance but the paintwork needs serious attention. For example, the forks are losing their chrome and showing rust on the wheel facing side. It's not so bad on the exterior surface but also not great.

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Old 06-11-17, 05:15 AM
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Here's a catolog scan for 1984. I don't see a color listed as blue, only white, but with Pugs, anything goes. Looks like the bars and stem are OE spec, as well as derailleurs. Everything else appears to be replacements.
http://www.bikeboompeugeot.com/Broch...ure%20PH12.jpg
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Old 06-11-17, 05:48 AM
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Thanks Mike. It's great to see the catalog for 1984 and the standard specifications. Unfortunately I don't know anything about the history of the bike prior to purchase but the changes happened before I owned it. Must admit I'm still curious about the frame even though various features point towards 1984. If only the serial number was more meaningful.

Also, excuse my ignorance, but the frame angles in the catalogue image look slightly different to mine. Is that because mine is a large frame?
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Old 06-11-17, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bstrummer View Post
l.

Also, excuse my ignorance, but the frame angles in the catalogue image look slightly different to mine. Is that because mine is a large frame?
The frame angles for a bike's design is based on the angle between the seat tube and the top tube, which is the same on yours as in the catalog, however the rest of the frame will change based on the height of the seat tube (frame size), so yes, it's because of the larger size.
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Old 06-11-17, 02:32 PM
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Shame on you for trying to turn that very nice Peugeot into a cyclo swamp monster under your parent's house!
It looks to be in decent enough shape under all that grunge. Please tear it down to the last bearing and clean it up and service/restore it to be road worthy again good quick before it's too late.
The bike deserves a much better fate than just rusting and rotting away slowly.....
Good Luck and keep us posted on the restoration. I'm sure you will be happy with it when it is all put together again for the road.
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Old 06-11-17, 02:45 PM
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You're absolutely right there Chombi1! The bike should never have ended up where it did and I shouldn't have allowed it! I'm just happy now that I remembered it was there along with a 15 speed mountain bike fortunately in good condition. Rest assured the tear down process for the Pug has begun with plans for servicing and restoration as necessary.
I've always thought there was something unusual about the frame shape and now I know why. Thanks for the explanation Mike!

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Old 06-11-17, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jj1091 View Post
Here's a catolog scan for 1984. I don't see a color listed as blue, only white, but with Pugs, anything goes. Looks like the bars and stem are OE spec, as well as derailleurs. Everything else appears to be replacements.
http://www.bikeboompeugeot.com/Broch...ure%20PH12.jpg
That's only the domestic (USA) brochure. Remember, OP is in NZ. Just between France/UK/US catalogs for 1984 there can be wild variation, so it's probably not a good gauge. I've never seen a catalog for NZ/APAC area, not sure if one exists, but I'd bet this bike would be in it though

Originally Posted by bstrummer View Post
The 5 digits underneath have thrown me and had me wondering about the possibility of the 1984 decals being stuck on an older frame. I read on classic rendezvous dot com that 'Some examples have lower numerical serial numbers while having later decal schemes' and wondered if I might have an example of this. But I have also read that there are serial numbers that don't follow the expected rules.
This isn't an older bike frame repaint and re-decal.

Originally Posted by bstrummer View Post
This is the wrong forum category to discuss repair issues but I am keen for advice about rust removal and repainting.
You don't want to repaint this bike. That's a bridge too far, no ROI in doing that, really. I won't even paint bikes with rust. Do rust remediation and move on.

If you have Amazon.com available at your location, there's an excellent eco-friendly rust removal product called Evapo-Rust, it may be available to you through Amazon. I'd use that on the forks. Wet some paper towels in it, wrap them flatly around the fork blades, cling-wrap around it so they don't dry out and leave overnight. wait 12-24 hours to peel the cling wrap and paper towels off and rinse with tap water thoroughly. You'll be shocked at how effective the product is.

If that's not an option, get fine (000 or better) brass wool (not steel wool!) and gently work the rusty chrome spots over.
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Old 06-11-17, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
That's only the domestic (USA) brochure. Remember, OP is in NZ. Just between France/UK/US catalogs for 1984 there can be wild variation, so it's probably not a good gauge. I've never seen a catalog for NZ/APAC area, not sure if one exists, but I'd bet this bike would be in it though
Very good point. I was wondering the same. Another thing is I see that on my bike the rear brake cable sits on top of the cross tube rather than running inside the tube as in pictures of the PH11 and PH12.

Originally Posted by francophile View Post
This isn't an older bike frame repaint and re-decal.
OK, thanks. I'm beginning to wonder if the NZ bikes had their own serial numbers. Just the fact there are no letters stamped on the frame. Or perhaps the model was on a paper label that has long gone.

Originally Posted by francophile View Post
You don't want to repaint this bike. That's a bridge too far, no ROI in doing that, really. I won't even paint bikes with rust. Do rust remediation and move on.
Totally agree. It would only be a labour of love and for my own satisfaction. Not convinced about the respray as yet. Was just a thought.

Originally Posted by francophile View Post
If you have Amazon.com available at your location, there's an excellent eco-friendly rust removal product called Evapo-Rust, it may be available to you through Amazon. I'd use that on the forks. Wet some paper towels in it, wrap them flatly around the fork blades, cling-wrap around it so they don't dry out and leave overnight. wait 12-24 hours to peel the cling wrap and paper towels off and rinse with tap water thoroughly. You'll be shocked at how effective the product is.

If that's not an option, get fine (000 or better) brass wool (not steel wool!) and gently work the rusty chrome spots over.
Thanks for the tips. The rust remover sounds great and by chance Evapo-Rust is available here in NZ though sold in large quantities and quite pricey. I might have to consider the brass wool option.

By the way I have taken more photos of the paint and chrome damage. Is it ok to post them via this thread?
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Old 06-11-17, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bstrummer View Post
By the way I have taken more photos of the paint and chrome damage. Is it ok to post them via this thread?
You may want to start another thread in the C&V forum, this is primarily for appraisals.
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Old 06-11-17, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
You may want to start another thread in the C&V forum, this is primarily for appraisals.
OK will do. Thanks.
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Old 06-12-17, 02:45 PM
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There's one more thing to add regarding my pug. Apparently in New Zealand back in the day, the usual thing to do was to first buy a frame and then select preferred components, rather than purchase a complete bike from the factory. I gather it was more cost effective to have components shipped to NZ from France than fully made up bikes.
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Old 06-13-17, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
Remember, OP is in NZ. Just between France/UK/US catalogs for 1984 there can be wild variation, so it's probably not a good gauge. I've never seen a catalog for NZ/APAC area, not sure if one exists, but I'd bet this bike would be in it though
Actually I think I am mistaken. Simplex is French not Italian?
Today after some dismantling and cleaning I found a tiny name stamped at the end of one of the chain stays. It says 'SIMPLEX'. If that means the frame was made by an Italian ? company then the only thing French about my bike is the Maillard rear hub and gear cassette along with the Peugeot decals. Or did SIMPLEX make frames for Peugeot?

Also I now understand that the stamp is on the dropout (attached to the chain stay) which was sourced from Simplex. So nothing to do with the frame.
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Old 06-13-17, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bstrummer View Post
Actually I think I am mistaken. Simplex is French not Italian?

Also I now understand that the stamp is on the dropout (attached to the chain stay) which was sourced from Simplex. So nothing to do with the frame.
I came here to correct this but I see you've figured it out. Yes, Simplex is a French company started by L. Juy almost 100 years ago. He had his highs and lows: on the high side, he invented the parallelogram rear derailleur design and elements still used today, but on the flip side he was also the first to use plastics heavily in derailleurs which I think helped lead to his downfall.

Having forged Simplex dropouts would indicate the bike is likely French, although some other brands have undoubtedly used the dropouts. Peugeot used Simplex dropouts on almost all of their consumer bikes through the bike boom era.
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Old 06-13-17, 03:43 PM
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The fact that you have forged, not stamped- see below, drop outs with adjustment screws (you might want to replace the bent one) means this bike is at least mid range. The ubiquitous entry level UO-8 had stamped steel drop outs. Good job digging this Pug out so it can see the light of day again and hopefully get pedaled. Have fun with your project and post updates!

[IMG]Stamped drop out by Ryan Surface, on Flickr[/IMG]
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Old 06-13-17, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
I came here to correct this but I see you've figured it out. Yes, Simplex is a French company started by L. Juy almost 100 years ago. He had his highs and lows: on the high side, he invented the parallelogram rear derailleur design and elements still used today, but on the flip side he was also the first to use plastics heavily in derailleurs which I think helped lead to his downfall.

Having forged Simplex dropouts would indicate the bike is likely French, although some other brands have undoubtedly used the dropouts. Peugeot used Simplex dropouts on almost all of their consumer bikes through the bike boom era.
Many thanks for the information about Simplex.

Some further details have come to light as a result of contacting some NZ Cycling groups and in particular a post shared with the ‘Retro Ride NZ’ Facebook group members. It didn’t take long for someone with a similar bike to reply. Here’s what he had to say:-

‘I have one in that colour which is perhaps a PFM 10 so far as I can tell from the overseas catalogues. It might have longer chainstays though. It is a good general purpose bike not a racer, it has clearances and lugs for full mudguards.

A PSV/PSN 10 racer in Super Vitus 980 was also made under licence by Healing (a local/NZ manufacturer of bicycles) from 1982/3 to maybe 1984 or so, it covered the model change.’

Also, ’My chainstays are at least 20mm longer, which gives heel clearance for panniers. Simplex derailleurs, Weinmann brakes, Stronglight crank.’

Regarding the frame angle markings his response was: ‘Mine are the same.’

The Facebook group moderator added that ‘the unique markings could be because the frame was made in NZ’

It didn’t occur to me that the fame might be NZ made. Now that seems the most likely explanation.
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Old 06-13-17, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ryansu View Post
The fact that you have forged, not stamped- see below, drop outs with adjustment screws (you might want to replace the bent one) means this bike is at least mid range. The ubiquitous entry level UO-8 had stamped steel drop outs.
[IMG]Stamped drop out by Ryan Surface, on Flickr[/IMG]
Thanks for pointing this out for me. You might be able to tell I'm a newbie with such details! It's good to know that the forged drop outs are worth having. No I didn't notice that one is bent. Will add that to the list!

Originally Posted by ryansu View Post
Good job digging this Pug out so it can see the light of day again and hopefully get pedaled. Have fun with your project and post updates!
Thanks again and yes hopefully it will ride again. I've added a separate post under 'Classic and Vintage' where I will post progress reports all going well. At the moment there are photos showing what I'm dealing with in terms of the frame and forks condition.
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