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Help with ID, maybe Gios with Campy & Suntour

Old 07-29-17, 06:43 PM
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GreaterPortland
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Help with ID, maybe Gios with Campy & Suntour

I picked up this bike recently from a guy who didn't have much info on it. He was pretty sure it was Italian, but it had no decals nor head badge to help identify it. Also no serial number anywhere that I can find. It is very light and has a bunch of Campy bits, including some high flange record hubs laced to Rigida rims. And what isn't Campy is all high end Suntour with Cyclone Derailleurs and Superbe brakes/levers. The BB, cranks, pedals, headset seatpost, dropouts, & hubs are all Campy, though I am not yet familiar enough to tell if it's all from the same groupset. The stem and handlebars are 3ttt.
The frame is nice and light (the whole things assembled with a Brooks saddle weighs less than 20lbs) and it has some cool cutouts in pretty much all of the lugwork, with some triangular/heart shapes. These even appear on the rear brake bridge lugs. Also on the inside of the forks there are pantographed card suits coming down either side.
The paint is red with black accents in all of the lug cutouts/pantographing. I can't tell if it's been repainted or not, but if it's a Gios it's possible it was originally blue. There is a tiny bit of blue paint left in the milling on the crank arms, so that might be telling. The seatpost has the Gios "Gt" logo panto'd onto it, as well as a bunch of circles that may or may not have ever had colors painted into them. There's none left that I can see now, but the Gt is still red.
The rear derailleur has the date code TD, so 1977, while the front derailleur has the code QF, or 1974. That's seems like a pretty wide range for a bike that was assembled all at once, but what do I know. Those parts are the only ones I've been able to date, so if they were replacements then I'm back to square one. I'm keeping this bike because it fits me, it's crazy light, and it's kind of sexy. But I'd love to know more about it. Thanks for any help at all.

Pics to follow
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Old 07-29-17, 11:47 PM
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FYI: your PB account doesn't allow for third party hosting so we are unable to see your images.

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Old 07-30-17, 12:34 PM
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https://flic.kr/p/XckUou

https://flic.kr/p/WE8HMy

https://flic.kr/p/XckUz1

https://flic.kr/p/WE8HDN

https://flic.kr/p/XckUbf

https://flic.kr/p/WE8HxL

https://flic.kr/p/XckTYw
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Old 07-30-17, 01:26 PM
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Adding back tire and tube will increase weight 3/4 lbs.
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Old 07-30-17, 02:49 PM
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It's possibly a mid-late 70's Richard Sachs. I know he pioneered / supplied those fork reinforcement liners with the full set of card suits. He used them up until the early 80s, but several other builders / friends of his did as well, but not with any regularity. Is there any pantographing on the top of the fork crown? or the rear brake bridge? I found a flickr album for a 1978 Richard Sachs with the same fork liners, and large fishmouthed stay ends, but it had pantographed fork crown tops, and rear brake bridge, and the lug cutouts were slightly different.

Are you sure there isn't any serial on the underside of the bottom bracket? If you could get some clean detail shots of the bottom bracket, front and rear dropouts, any lug cutouts, and the fork crown it would help a lot with narrowing down the list of suspects.
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Old 07-30-17, 06:54 PM
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/BVuPfauy71Crodyt2

That link has all of the pics that you requested cdmurphy. I think, anyway. Thanks everyone for the help so far.
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Old 07-30-17, 08:49 PM
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Not a Gios. Not sure what it is, what nationality of BB threading?
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Old 07-30-17, 08:50 PM
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Judging solely on the two different stay/fork end treatments, it seems the fork may not be original to the frame. Bocama Competition 83 lugset. Interesting BB shell, with windows and points for the main tubes but straight cut for the chainstays.

I'm at a loss to ID this right now except to say it's not a Gios. Nothing jumps out - not even the fork tangs with the card suits. I know the Sachs story, but others in Europe used this, too. I have a Saba (Italian) frame from 1980 that uses them (I re-worked it into what I rebadged an Apina):



Pull that Gios pantographed post, list it on Ebay and make some big coin

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Old 07-30-17, 09:14 PM
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Yeah, that's an odd duck. Those 7 holes in the bottom bracket are kind of characteristic for a Windsor Professional (which this certainly is not). The workmanship looks decent, but not what I'd expect from a top level builder. Those large fishmouth seatstay ends stand out particularly. It looks like they weren't mitered correctly, so the dropout sits too far inside, with the opening not centered on the dropout leg. Maybe a project from a frame building class?
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Old 07-31-17, 10:16 AM
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The BB shell's drain hole pattern in similar to that on @AZORCH's 1966 Paramount. Just my two cents.
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Old 07-31-17, 06:40 PM
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Whatever it is, it looks nice and well made.

I wonder if it could have come from a builders class or is there too much unique stuff like the 'fish' stay ends and BB cutouts?
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Old 07-31-17, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
Whatever it is, it looks nice and well made.

I wonder if it could have come from a builders class or is there too much unique stuff like the 'fish' stay ends and BB cutouts?
I have noticed beginners start with the idea to make ONE special frame, so the kitchen sink gets tossed in to the styling. The playing card suit reinforcements were a standard item for a while, if I recall Richard's story correctly he bought out the supplier inventory at one point, then resold them as he had sufficient excess stock to do so.

Baylis bought some, he reworked the interior shapes and made them much less klunky.

The bottom bracket hole configuration shows up on any number of brands, seen it on Harry Quinn, Cinelli, Colnago (before the "clover") in similar set ups.

Last edited by repechage; 07-31-17 at 11:08 PM.
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