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Paramount PDG2

Old 11-13-18, 06:41 PM
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davzimmermann
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Paramount PDG2

I accidentally posted the Olmo twice, and I am not sure how to delete. So Iíll bug yaíll about this Paramount. 150 seems like an excellent dealómore in my range if I am going to make some changes. I didnít spot anything wrong.

https://houston.craigslist.org/bik/d...736853088.html

Last edited by davzimmermann; 11-13-18 at 07:27 PM. Reason: double post
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Old 11-13-18, 07:27 PM
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Nice find

Looks to be in great shape but think the price is too high for a Gara frame. I try to get it for 500.
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Old 11-13-18, 07:39 PM
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Thread title fixed.
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Old 11-13-18, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kars View Post
Looks to be in great shape but think the price is too high for a Gara frame. I try to get it for 500.
??? did I read the add incorrectly, the seller is asking 150.00.
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Old 11-13-18, 08:50 PM
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I believe that he is referring to the OP's other thread.
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Old 11-13-18, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cb400bill View Post
I believe that he is referring to the OP's other thread.
Always vigilant...Thanks Bill.
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Old 11-14-18, 07:35 AM
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The Series 2 was the lowest model of the series bikes, likely made in China. Component group was underwhelming on all the series bikes. The higher models were made in Japan by Panasonic. Schwinn extended the Paramount name to many products and bikes.

If you have a bin full of parts, these bikes are worth an upgrade. I upgraded my Series 5 to tricolor, and my series 7 to Dura Ace. Most likely, the parts on that bike work fine.


Still at the price, if it fits, why not?
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Old 11-14-18, 11:32 AM
  #8  
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The PDG series 2 and 3 frames were made by Giant in Taiwan, using Tange precision butted OS tubing, speced by Schwinn/ Waterford, whoever was in charge at that time. The series 5 and 7 were built with the same type tubing, by Panasonic in Japan. The weight difference between a Series 2 and 7 bike, is less then 1.5 pounds, due to component weight differences.
The frames are basically all the same, geometry is identical. The PDG series 9 frame was composite, and built somewhere in the states. That red Series 2 bike, in that condition is worth $150 all day long, only the color and components really differentiate it, from a Series 3 thru 7.
Tim

Last edited by tkamd73; 11-14-18 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 11-14-18, 12:20 PM
  #9  
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150 is fine for that. I'd switch out the gatorskins-- they don't puncture but ride like lead weights, but that is a minor quibble.
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Old 11-14-18, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post
The PDG series 2 and 3 frames were made by Giant in Taiwan, using Tange precision butted OS tubing, speced by Schwinn/ Waterford, whoever was in charge at that time. The series 5 and 7 were built with the same type tubing, by Panasonic in Japan. The weight difference between a Series 2 and 7 bike, is less then 1.5 pounds, due to component weight differences.
The frames are basically all the same, geometry is identical. The PDG series 9 frame was composite, and built somewhere in the states. That red Series 2 bike, in that condition is worth $150 all day long, only the color and components really differentiate it, from a Series 3 thru 7.
Tim

Quote from Scooper (Stan Cooper) "The Series 7 and Series 5 Paramounts were built by National/Panasonic in Japan, but the Series 3 and Series 2 were made initially by A-Pro (Taiwan), but by 1992 production was moved to mainland China."
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Old 11-14-18, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
Quote from Scooper (Stan Cooper) "The Series 7 and Series 5 Paramounts were built by National/Panasonic in Japan, but the Series 3 and Series 2 were made initially by A-Pro (Taiwan), but by 1992 production was moved to mainland China."
@wrk101, thanks for the additional input, I know scooper is very knowledgeable about Paramounts, and many things Schwinn, but was curious, if you had any actual source besides a quote from another forum member. Maybe he will chime in with his source. I know things came to a head between Schwinn and Giant in 91, but wasn’t A-pro owned by Giant? Also, I realize that China(CBC) came into the picture but thought after 92.
Regardless, my point was that the OP should consider that Series 2 for $150, pretty good deal.
Tim


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Old 11-14-18, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post

@wrk101, thanks for the additional input, I know scooper is very knowledgeable about Paramounts, and many things Schwinn, but was curious, if you had any actual source besides a quote from another forum member. Maybe he will chime in with his source. I know things came to a head between Schwinn and Giant in 91, but wasnít A-pro owned by Giant? Also, I realize that China(CBC) came into the picture but thought after 92.
Regardless, my point was that the OP should consider that Series 2 for $150, pretty good deal.
Tim


Here's what Marc Muller had to say about the Series Paramounts:

"National/Panasonic were willing and eager partners in this project. I spent a lot of time in their plant, and they at our corporate headquarters, overseeing the smallest details to assure the bikes were worthy of the name. While some of us had reservations about the use of the name, after spending the 80's building up the Schwinn/Paramount/PDG brand, once the decision was made to use the name everyone was on board to make the finest possible bikes at their price point. Are they Waterford Paramounts? No. Are they excellent bicycles? You bet! Don't listen to the bashers, you'll drive yourself crazy!"

Since the Waterford website refers to the Series Paramounts as being imported from "Asian factories" (not specifically Panasonic in Japan), Richard Schwinn discussed the origin of the different Series Paramount models in an e-mail to Bob Hufford:

"The 'Series' Paramounts mostly came from Japan, but the Series 2, 20, 3 and 30 came from Taiwan and eventually China by 1992."

Basically, the Series 7 and Series 5 were built by Panasonic in Japan, while the Series 3 and Series 2 were initially built on Taiwan and later in mainland China.
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Old 11-14-18, 06:15 PM
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That bike is worth $150 all day long!
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Old 11-15-18, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post

@wrk101, thanks for the additional input, I know scooper is very knowledgeable about Paramounts, and many things Schwinn, but was curious, if you had any actual source besides a quote from another forum member. Maybe he will chime in with his source. I know things came to a head between Schwinn and Giant in 91, but wasnít A-pro owned by Giant? Also, I realize that China(CBC) came into the picture but thought after 92.
Regardless, my point was that the OP should consider that Series 2 for $150, pretty good deal.
Tim


I know of no connection between A-Pro and Giant. If you find one, please post it. Yes, there are several sources of where the Series Paramounts were made, not just Stan. But given Stans unique family connection with Schwinn, I don't need more confirmation.
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Old 11-15-18, 08:29 PM
  #15  
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I don't think Taiwan is the same thing as mainland China. I think Giant made some good quality bikes back in the early 90's. $150 is a very good price for that bike. Most high quality bikes of Japanese lineage from that era go for $300.
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Old 11-15-18, 08:53 PM
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92 Series 5

Thanks @ jamesdak. So the bike the OP is interested in is a 92, as no Series 2 in 91, which could have come from Taiwan, or China, but nobody really knows for sure. If we had a serial number would we really know?

Thanks @wrk101, any chance you could list some of those sources, unlike you Iíd like some more confirmation. I have a vested interest in these ďAsianĒ Paramounts
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Old 11-15-18, 10:06 PM
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The Waterford webpage has info on the Series bikes - it says they were mostly built in Asia but does not specify the country.
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Old 11-15-18, 11:36 PM
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Yup, good for figuring out year, model, and component group of a Series bike, not much production info though.
Thanks, Tim
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Old 11-16-18, 03:43 AM
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i sold a '92 Schwinn PDG2 for about $250 - equipped with 600 Ultegra 8spd stuff.
it's got a great big sticker on the head tube that says "JAPAN". for some reason this leads me to believe the frame/fork were probably made in JAPAN. i bought the frame originally, so i know the JAPAN sticker was always there.

great bike. loved the way it raced. https://goo.gl/photos/F3SJeYSMhPgB3uzY7
- unfortunately i quit racing, and couldn't bare to see the bike with a NITTO Technominic stem and flat pedals.....

cheers.
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Old 11-16-18, 05:08 PM
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A couple of more things, and I will be done hijacking the OPs thread, although the bike is still listed, so I don’t think he bought into it. Given the serial number of one of the Series bikes, can you at least tell what Asian country, let alone company, the bike came from? The frames on all the Series road bike are pretty much identical, same tubing, same geometry, unless there was a capacity issue, which could be the case, why would they be built in different factories? They weren’t marketing some stereotypical hierarchy of quality of Japan, verses Tiawan, verses China. Why didn’t all 92 production end up in China, looking at the cost standpoint. The increasing price point of the 2 through 7 road models, and was just due to the component group used. Do I know for sure that my 92 Series 5 didn’t come from China.
If I lived close to Houston, I would buy this bike for a measly 150 dollars, and transfer all my Series 5 components to the Series 2 frame. The red is much more attractive, then the purple slime I’m stuck with, and it’s much cheaper then repainting the frame.
Tim

Last edited by tkamd73; 11-16-18 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 11-17-18, 08:12 AM
  #21  
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Hopefully he buys it, they are amazing bikes. Fast as all get out!!


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Old 11-17-18, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post
A couple of more things, and I will be done hijacking the OPs thread, although the bike is still listed, so I don’t think he bought into it. Given the serial number of one of the Series bikes, can you at least tell what Asian country, let alone company, the bike came from? The frames on all the Series road bike are pretty much identical, same tubing, same geometry, unless there was a capacity issue, which could be the case, why would they be built in different factories? They weren’t marketing some stereotypical hierarchy of quality of Japan, verses Tiawan, verses China. Why didn’t all 92 production end up in China, looking at the cost standpoint. The increasing price point of the 2 through 7 road models, and was just due to the component group used. Do I know for sure that my 92 Series 5 didn’t come from China.
If I lived close to Houston, I would buy this bike for a measly 150 dollars, and transfer all my Series 5 components to the Series 2 frame. The red is much more attractive, then the purple slime I’m stuck with, and it’s much cheaper then repainting the frame.
Tim





Panasonic had a very distinctive easy to decode serial number. The others not so much. Your Series 5 is very likely a Japanese Panasonic. If so, it will have a Panasonic serial number on the head tube. IMHO, I put a higher value on Panasonic than I would in Taiwan or China made. In my experience, the workmanship differences between the countries of origin was noticeable. That should not affect rideabiltiy.

They were built in other countries for the same reason stuff is made in other countries today, to SAVE $$. Taiwan production costs more than China, and Japan production costs more than Taiwan.

Many of the vintage brands people love around here went from Japan manufacturing to Taiwan for the economics.

Serial numbers on these bikes are not Schwinn numbers, they are the numbers of the actual manufacturer.


For decades Schwinn had Panasonic make some of their best imported bikes (World Voyageur, Volare, Prologue to name just a few), and let Giant in Taiwan make their lower models. The move to Taiwan and eventually to China was driven by economics. Schwinn went bankrupt in 1992, so economics was a strong driver. In addition, from what I read, they stopped paying suppliers too, so likely went seeking new manufacturing partners.


Personally, I kind of miss my purple slime series 5 (upgraded).


Tools Prologue Series 5 Xmas 013 by wrk101, on Flickr


Then again, the quality drop between Panasonic in 1987 to Panasonic in 1992 was noticeable to me as well.


Tools Prologue Series 5 Xmas 006 by wrk101, on Flickr

Last edited by wrk101; 11-17-18 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 11-17-18, 10:31 PM
  #23  
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Thanks @wrk101, Appreciate the info. You had some nice upgrades on that Series 5.
Tim
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Old 11-20-18, 11:27 PM
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My 92 PDG3 also had the made in Japan sticker
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