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-   -   Alex Singer Earnest Csuka frame/build (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage-bicycles-whats-worth-appraisals/1170759-alex-singer-earnest-csuka-frame-build.html)

rquiroz602 04-16-19 09:59 PM

Alex Singer Earnest Csuka frame/build
 
was lucky enough to come across this ride, and want to know more about it. Wasn't sure if i wanted to, or had the time to rebuild(wife says nope).
It's an Alex Singer E.Csuka frame, and from what i can tell from a little research, it's got a good deal of pedigree.
it's a pretty large frame, at about 62cm seat tube(c-c).
I found it in rough shape, but complete, with the exception of the Brooks saddle, which pretty much a frame with scraps of leather clinging to it.
Here are detail for components:
Mafac 2000 levers and calipers.
Campagnolo down tube shifters.
Campagnolo front derailleur for a triple.
Shimano Crane GS long cage rear derailleur
Cinelli bars, and quill stem.
Campagnolo headset.
Super Champion wheel set laced with Campagnolo hubs.
Atom model TPP 22 with Christophe Special clips(made in france, oooh).
So, my question is, should rebuild, part and sell, or sell as a whole? What is the frame and components worth? Any ideas would be helpful. Thanks, Richard
Guess i can't post pics until after ten posts. :(

bikemig 04-17-19 07:03 AM


Originally Posted by rquiroz602 (Post 20888099)
was lucky enough to come across this ride, and want to know more about it. Wasn't sure if i wanted to, or had the time to rebuild(wife says nope).
It's an Alex Singer E.Csuka frame, and from what i can tell from a little research, it's got a good deal of pedigree.
it's a pretty large frame, at about 62cm seat tube(c-c).
I found it in rough shape, but complete, with the exception of the Brooks saddle, which pretty much a frame with scraps of leather clinging to it.
Here are detail for components:
Mafac 2000 levers and calipers.
Campagnolo down tube shifters.
Campagnolo front derailleur for a triple.
Shimano Crane GS long cage rear derailleur
Cinelli bars, and quill stem.
Campagnolo headset.
Super Champion wheel set laced with Campagnolo hubs.
Atom model TPP 22 with Christophe Special clips(made in france, oooh).
So, my question is, should rebuild, part and sell, or sell as a whole? What is the frame and components worth? Any ideas would be helpful. Thanks, Richard
Guess i can't post pics until after ten posts. :(

You can go to the introductions page and post there. People will respond, you respond back and before you know it, you'll be at 10. Looking forward to seeing the pics.

zukahn1 04-17-19 03:50 PM

Reads like a great bike 62cm is huge for a 70's French bike considering this you should consider rebuilding and keeping it if it's your size. If not you will likely do better with a part out and selling the frame.

63rickert 04-17-19 04:24 PM

Any Csuka build is worth keeping and basically priceless. Such stuff as dreams are made on. For resale much of the value is in the original paint, the racks, the special features. Singer did sell 'normal' race bikes when customers asked, those do not have so much monetary value. Put pictures up when you can, lots here ride big frames.

Cycles Alex Singer is still in business if you want proper restoration. The prices they sell restored bikes at are amazingly low. Guessing the ones I've seen offered are unclaimed bikes from collectors who lost interest or passed on. Two to three thousand for utterly immaculate bikes that are hard to distinguish from new.

63rickert 04-17-19 04:31 PM

Here:
cycles-alex-singer.fr

Current principal is Olivier Csuka, son of Ernst. Ernst married Alex' daughter so it is all in family.

Pedigree is often worth something. Who is connected to this one?

repechage 04-17-19 05:16 PM

Everything has a value, remember tall guys are cheap.
If you really really know what you are doing and have the correct tools, service it and then sell it.
Otherwise, sell it whole, you can do a light clean, if it has chrome, verify its condition, spot polish it at the worst area, gives confidence to what will be the final result when the buyer puts in effort.
Don't take it to a local bike shop to pack it up for possible shipment. UNLESS they are VERY experienced in packing vintage bikes.

scarlson 04-18-19 04:58 PM

What is the wheel size? Any fenders? Racks? Is the stem Cinelli as well, or is it chromed steel (meaning made by Singer)? Are the brakes' pivots brazed on to the fork blades or do they bolt to the fork crown? That thing would fit me. Hmmm.

vintagerando 04-18-19 09:08 PM


Originally Posted by rquiroz602 (Post 20888099)
was lucky enough to come across this ride, and want to know more about it. Wasn't sure if i wanted to, or had the time to rebuild(wife says nope).
:(

Lucky is an understatement. If I were to name two grail bikes I want to own in my life, an Alex Singer would be one.
Email me photos and I will post them.

63rickert 04-19-19 09:48 AM

Here's a (visually) perfect Singer for 2000/offer. 60cm if interested.

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/ALEX-SINGER-...EAAOSwg-5cpLOX

Completed listings show a couple recent sales around 1200 for very good looking bikes.

A Singer is always going to be worth the trouble. A rough Singer is a worthwhile project, should be priced as a project.

scarlson 04-19-19 12:11 PM


Originally Posted by 63rickert (Post 20891629)
Here's a (visually) perfect Singer for 2000/offer. 60cm if interested.

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/ALEX-SINGER-...EAAOSwg-5cpLOX

Completed listings show a couple recent sales around 1200 for very good looking bikes.

A Singer is always going to be worth the trouble. A rough Singer is a worthwhile project, should be priced as a project.

Words to live by, a Singer is always going to be worth the trouble.

I saw that listing on evilbay. It's a beautiful bike and an ok price. It's likely someone at least mildly affiliated with the shop, because it's located in Levallois. I know beggars can't be choosers, but somehow putting campy/Cinelli on it and not having brazed-on Mafacs for brakes just seems ...wrong. The craftsmanship is virtuosic, but it's too Italian for me and wouldn't be easily adapted to French components because of the non-brazed-on brakes.

A few years back I dropped in to the Singer shop on a Saturday and met Olivier and the gang, who were sharing beers in the upper level. Talking about Bicycle Quarterly. Got to test-ride one of the guys' all-French-equipped racing models from the '70s, with Maxicars Stronglight and Simplex and Huret Jubilee. Man was it ever excellent! Too small though. Old French bikes are almost always too small for me. I may wait forever, or I may cough it up and order a custom new build. Another possible sticking point is that I don't see a 650b rando bike anywhere in the recent-builds section of their website, and I'm not sure if that's just because this style really isn't popular in the current French high-end or if they simply Won't Build One. And I'm too afraid to ask unless I have several thousand euros at the ready and serious conviction to buy one. Any "tire kicking" or "what-if game" is just wasting Olivier's time.

Vonruden 04-19-19 03:38 PM


Originally Posted by 63rickert (Post 20891629)
Here's a (visually) perfect Singer for 2000/offer. 60cm if interested.

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/ALEX-SINGER-...EAAOSwg-5cpLOX

Completed listings show a couple recent sales around 1200 for very good looking bikes.

A Singer is always going to be worth the trouble. A rough Singer is a worthwhile project, should be priced as a project.

Anyone else question whether this is a real Singer? The lugs look nothing like the ones on mine.

63rickert 04-19-19 04:46 PM


Originally Posted by Vonruden (Post 20892135)
Anyone else question whether this is a real Singer? The lugs look nothing like the ones on mine.

Most common lugset and fork crown on Singers in recent years. Many details say Singer.

unterhausen 04-20-19 06:46 AM


Originally Posted by scarlson (Post 20891876)
Words to live by, a Singer is always going to be worth the trouble.

I saw that listing on evilbay. It's a beautiful bike and an ok price. It's likely someone at least mildly affiliated with the shop, because it's located in Levallois. I know beggars can't be choosers, but somehow putting campy/Cinelli on it and not having brazed-on Mafacs for brakes just seems ...wrong. The craftsmanship is virtuosic, but it's too Italian for me and wouldn't be easily adapted to French components because of the non-brazed-on brakes.

Singer and Herse built typical racing bikes too, not just randonneurs. I doubt those bikes are really worth as much as the randonneurs, but what do I know? It's still a beautiful bike.

ThermionicScott 04-20-19 12:01 PM

Being willing to build Italianate racing bikes probably kept their lights on in the 70s/80s. One could always do a 650B conversion. :thumb:

unterhausen 04-20-19 02:04 PM

I think it looks distinctly French. Look at the ends of the stays for just one thing. No Italian could pull that off. I'm sure I could pick out more details that are French

ThermionicScott 04-20-19 04:33 PM


Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 20893163)
I think it looks distinctly French. Look at the ends of the stays for just one thing. No Italian could pull that off. I'm sure I could pick out more details that are French

Fair point, I should have stuck with "racing-style." I'm thinking of the Campy-equipped, 700C wheel, side-pull brake road bike type that everyone gravitated to.

rquiroz602 04-22-19 11:45 AM

oooh, well I guess I was luckier than I thought. Once allowed, i'll put the pics up of the Singer frame.
Some quick info on it now. Paint is rough. Faded due to Arizona sun, and i believe it was left outside a bit.
Some rust, but not much at all.

rquiroz602 04-22-19 03:15 PM

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6879d4d692.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b104e716b.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...99b6c9a231.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...439750780e.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4deaecaa93.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b7efe73a7d.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8f55e8eccc.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1f97647a85.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...45e215ced2.jpg

zukahn1 04-22-19 08:08 PM

Well that frame and paint is a lot worse than expected still a great frame set worth some effort as is I would say $250 even with condition rust issues. Really nicely cleaned up ready to ride $500 or so the paint and rust are going to really hold down the price on this one unless you do a lot of work likely full strip some frame work and full repaint which would run $500-600 then you could $1200 or so good news is you can't really loose money on this one so go nuts on the rebuild.

unterhausen 04-22-19 08:28 PM

too bad the rack is gone, I wonder how it worked.

That was a really nice bike, and it probably could be restored. I'm not sure about valuation

zukahn1 04-22-19 08:40 PM


Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 20896362)
too bad the rack is gone, I wonder how it worked.

That was a really nice bike, and it probably could be restored. I'm not sure about valuation

+1 the singer racks and fenders would really up this bikes potential if rquiroz602 has them.

raymond1354 04-22-19 10:38 PM

Cheers:

Finally pictures! Congrats, it's the real deal.

My knowledge base for Singer is not as great as for other bikes of this type. Generally speaking, the style of the lugs, incorporated cable guide for the rear centre pull brake, fish mouth treatment and finish quality of the stays and fork blade at the dropout and fork ends are "typical" of Singer and the kind of thing I personally look for when evaluating these bikes. Interestingly there are braze-ons for integrated racks front and rear which is a positive even if the racks are not present.

I have difficulty classifying this bike though. While it has braze-ons for racks and eyelets on the fork-ends and dropouts, it has horizontal not vertical dropouts which you would expect on a cyclosportif, randonneuse or touring. Nor does it have braze-on posts for the centre-pulls. The equipment is not something one would expect for a French bike made for France. Singer did sell bikes through some shops in the U.S. and I think this is one of those.

I quite strongly disagree with painting this frame. The decals show that this is a Ernst Csuka Singer which adds provenance and value. I think the paint can be brightened up significantly.

With respect to value, it is difficult to say. 62 cm is a rare size so there is a small, but definite market for it. As a complete bike, most Singerphiles are looking for French equipment not Campy. The frame (too me anyway) is a bit of an odd duck, but it is a Singer so is a quality frame. For comparison a private sale is currently asking about 5k for a superb bike, recent ebay sales of good (better than yours) have been around 3k and the dregs, a CNC built Singer went for about 1500.

Ray H.

63rickert 04-23-19 10:10 AM

You have rescued a beautiful bike. If you want to know what the market thinks do an auction.

Were this to simply become a rider what's needed is frame alignment, cleanup and touchup, complete the build with mainly French parts. Period-correct kinda goes out the window with Singer because builds were done from the shop's large collection of pieces, acquired over time. Paint makes no sense for this one, patina is worth more.

If a full restoration or re-created racks were wanted the only place to get that done is Cycles Alex Singer.

zukahn1 04-23-19 05:34 PM


Originally Posted by raymond1354 (Post 20896498)
Cheers:


Finally pictures! Congrats, it's the real deal.


My knowledge base for Singer is not as great as for other bikes of this type. Generally speaking, the style of the lugs, incorporated cable guide for the rear centre pull brake, fish mouth treatment and finish quality of the stays and fork blade at the dropout and fork ends are "typical" of Singer and the kind of thing I personally look for when evaluating these bikes. Interestingly there are braze-ons for integrated racks front and rear which is a positive even if the racks are not present.


I have difficulty classifying this bike though. While it has braze-ons for racks and eyelets on the fork-ends and dropouts, it has horizontal not vertical dropouts which you would expect on a cyclosportif, randonneuse or touring. Nor does it have braze-on posts for the centre-pulls. The equipment is not something one would expect for a French bike made for France. Singer did sell bikes through some shops in the U.S. and I think this is one of those.


I quite strongly disagree with painting this frame. The decals show that this is a Ernst Csuka Singer which adds provenance and value. I think the paint can be brightened up significantly.


With respect to value, it is difficult to say. 62 cm is a rare size so there is a small, but definite market for it. As a complete bike, most Singerphiles are looking for French equipment not Campy. The frame (too me anyway) is a bit of an odd duck, but it is a Singer so is a quality frame. For comparison a private sale is currently asking about 5k for a superb bike, recent ebay sales of good (better than yours) have been around 3k and the dregs, a CNC built Singer went for about 1500.


Ray H.


As for the type frame it is pretty typical of a nicer French light touring bike from the 60's to mid 70's braze on's on for matching racks, medium length vertical dropouts fairly long wheelbase relatively low bb.. As for brakes these were designed for relatively long reach premium center pulls to alloy a lot of clearance for fenders and racks. Having both rack and canti braze on's would create issues on the fork and rear stays the French opted for rack braze ons. I have had a couple of vintage French touring sport bikes with this configuration.


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