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Mystery track frame #3

Old 02-25-23, 05:07 PM
  #1  
Kevin537
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Mystery track frame #3

Everyone here has been super helpful. Here is the 3rd and last mystery track frame I have. Pics are attached, itís a repaint and the lugs are fancy but other than that I have no idea.









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Old 02-25-23, 05:30 PM
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What are the frame measurements?
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Old 02-25-23, 09:45 PM
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Wow! Nice frame. A.S. Gillott looks like a strong contender to me.
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Old 02-25-23, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TugaDude
What are the frame measurements?
Yes. Out of more-than-idle curiosity what is the frame size?
Brent
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Old 02-25-23, 11:33 PM
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Changed my mind.

Claud Butler or Holdsworth maybe?

Edit: I'm a dummy 😂

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Old 02-26-23, 05:03 PM
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Frame size

Originally Posted by obrentharris
Yes. Out of more-than-idle curiosity what is the frame size?
Brent
the top tube is 23Ē and the seat post tube is 23Ē c-c for both.
the bb shell is 2-5í8Ē
head tube 6Ė7/8Ē
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Old 02-26-23, 08:29 PM
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Perhaps we could get @unworthy1 or @Charles Wahl or @juvela to take a look at this.
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Old 02-26-23, 08:48 PM
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-----

have little to assist

am weak on British in general and when it gets back onto the fifties & before am pretty much in the dark

have seen these frame ends previously but am unable to recall the producer; they may be from one of the cycle makers who had their own designs such as Percy Stallard or Claud Butler; or they could just be from Cyclo for example...

seat stay plugs are sure to be from someone such as Brampton or Haden

possible lug pattern one produced by a well-known Brit name but a proprietary design done for a specific maker...


-----

Last edited by juvela; 02-26-23 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 02-27-23, 09:45 AM
  #9  
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It's humorous to me why obrentharris would think of me as an authority in anything like the same league as unworthy1 or juvela. My untutored impression is that Gillott or Hetchins would be likely suspects. As a sometime "bike voyeur" or ogler, I'd have to say that very few constructors are in the same category of "fancy" where lugwork is concerned. I'd be looking not so much at the lugs themselves, as to a) the seat stay terminals, and b) the spacing/arrangement of the head badge holes, as salient clues. Plus, there's the bonus of a serial number. The presence of an oil/grease port hole in the bottom bracket points to an earlier date than the '70s, certainly. Both Gillott and Hetchins used metal head badges, both were secured to two holes disposed vertically. Gillott's (just a WAG based on looking at examples) may have been farther apart than Hetchins. Plus, I found this example on classiclightweights.co.uk that has both a metal head badge and seat stay caps that appear to be similar (or even identical) to those on the track frame:


It's even got a curved brake bridge too. Gotta say, if the track frame turns out to be a Gillott, it's a finer example than the '55 one on classiclightweights (and maybe earlier), which only has garden variety Nervex Pro lugs. Take off that ugly repaint, and it's a treasure.

Last edited by Charles Wahl; 02-27-23 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 02-27-23, 02:22 PM
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flattering that Brent thought I have expertise in this field, but I do not, sorry.
What I will offer (as WAGs) are a few observations: I don't see examples in any of these marques that exactly match the example's lugwork:
Holdsworth (or Hurlow) tho there are tempting similarities I don't see a match in any of the "Wind models" or Bill Hurlow's vast hand-cut lug library
Gillott (sorry but no match seen there either)
Claud Butler
Freddie Grubb
Bates (either Horace or E.B.)
and just about everything else in the "Classic British" gallery of Classic Rendezvous.
So in short I gots nuthin.
The track ends with threaded eyelets may indicate this was a "road-path" model, or maybe not. I've seen a similar profile to the stamping of these ends but can't recall what brand(s) used them, nor come up with a photo.
Likewise agree that the staycaps were used by several marques, if I could find them all it MIGHT narrow the field but I think the lugs and BB shell are far better clues (for somebody who recognizes them).
Serial number means nothing to me but "C 7711" is bound to help some better sleuth...I would suggest OP try sending pix to the Classic Lightweights UK folks, if anyone there would play along. Or perhaps a link to the "CR List"
Or cast a bigger net here in C&V and copy this into a general thread (not in the "what's it worth? evaluation" subforum.
Good luck!

Last edited by unworthy1; 02-27-23 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 02-27-23, 04:38 PM
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As was stated, it might have been set up for both track and path racing. Here's a track frame on the bay which has similar fork ends in the rear. But they don't exhibit those little extra nubs. Did those have a purpose?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/38527053917...xoCeEAQAvD_BwE
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Old 02-27-23, 04:43 PM
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I may have answered my own question. I found this example. Seems there are retaining clamps which can fit onto the fork end.

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Old 02-27-23, 08:43 PM
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Kevin537 - did the frame come with a fork? If not, it's a shame as those were pretty nice looking.

unworthy1 and Senrab62 are on the right track here (no pun intended).

This looks like one of those rare, one or two year Holdsworth Zephyrs (1958/1959). The seat stay caps on the mystery frame were introduced on the Zephyr model in 1957 (and were called "fluted wrap-over top eyes" in the catalog). Also, the ends are only identified as "...long 2" path ends" in the catalogs. In 1958 the lugs were changed to the ones on this frame (with lots of "fishtails"). By 1961, Cyclone and Zephyr had the same lugs (no windows/cutouts in the lugs), after which the Zephyr model goes away (I think it may have been revived relatively recently).

I don't have a late 50s Holdsworth to measure, but I've seen some owners on online forums mentioning 57mm as the distance between head badge rivets. There were different designs of badges though, so I'm not exactly sure which one was 57mm.

The only thing that's confusing me is the serial number that doesn't conform to normal Holdsworth numbering scheme. There were some 'shop special' frames that had a letter prefix, so that's most likely what this is. Apparently, it was not uncommon to have top tier (which the Zephyr was) frames customized, which is probably why the few of these late Zephyrs that you'll run into tend to show small differences.




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Old 02-27-23, 09:07 PM
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Maurice Moss pulls a rabbit out of a hat again!
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Old 02-27-23, 10:07 PM
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-----

Thank you so much DCI Moss!

Verily, the man must have siddhic powers.


-----
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Old 02-27-23, 11:54 PM
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Incredible

Great job Maurice. I always appreciate when you chime in.
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Old 02-28-23, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by TugaDude
As was stated, it might have been set up for both track and path racing. Here's a track frame on the bay which has similar fork ends in the rear. But they don't exhibit those little extra nubs. Did those have a purpose?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/38527053917...xoCeEAQAvD_BwE
The nubs were for clamp on wheel adjusters common on 30-50's race bikes for helping with quick wheel changes.
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Old 02-28-23, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MauriceMoss
Kevin537 - did the frame come with a fork? If not, it's a shame as those were pretty nice looking.

unworthy1 and Senrab62 are on the right track here (no pun intended).

This looks like one of those rare, one or two year Holdsworth Zephyrs (1958/1959). The seat stay caps on the mystery frame were introduced on the Zephyr model in 1957 (and were called "fluted wrap-over top eyes" in the catalog). Also, the ends are only identified as "...long 2" path ends" in the catalogs. In 1958 the lugs were changed to the ones on this frame (with lots of "fishtails"). By 1961, Cyclone and Zephyr had the same lugs (no windows/cutouts in the lugs), after which the Zephyr model goes away (I think it may have been revived relatively recently).

I don't have a late 50s Holdsworth to measure, but I've seen some owners on online forums mentioning 57mm as the distance between head badge rivets. There were different designs of badges though, so I'm not exactly sure which one was 57mm.

The only thing that's confusing me is the serial number that doesn't conform to normal Holdsworth numbering scheme. There were some 'shop special' frames that had a letter prefix, so that's most likely what this is. Apparently, it was not uncommon to have top tier (which the Zephyr was) frames customized, which is probably why the few of these late Zephyrs that you'll run into tend to show small differences.




thank you so much for the wealth of information you e shared Iím sure I never would have solved this one without everyoneís help. I canít do the frame the justice of a proper restoration so it will be for sale in the near future. Unfortunately I do not have the fork.
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