Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
Reload this Page >

Former racer came in. Raleigh 753, number hanger

Notices
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals. Use this subforum for all requests as to "How much is this vintage bike worth?"Do NOT try to sell it in here, use the Marketplaces.

Former racer came in. Raleigh 753, number hanger

Old 11-22-23, 11:32 AM
  #26  
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,784

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26077 Post(s)
Liked 9,991 Times in 6,940 Posts
.
... Robvolz , I wanted to let you know that there's an online group specifically devoted to SBDU bicycles, now that the origin of yours is clear. Here is a link. People are always listing frames and bikes they want to sell on there, so you might find someone interested in yours, because it's cheap enough that shipping is a possibility.

There's also a Facebook group, but I don't belong to it, so I don't know their selling policies.

As I stated earlier, these frames do have a following. But the Raleigh branded ones far outnumber the Raleigh USA ones.
__________________
3alarmer is online now  
Likes For 3alarmer:
Old 11-22-23, 03:00 PM
  #27  
Senior Member
 
zukahn1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fairplay Co
Posts: 9,496

Bikes: Current 79 Nishiki Custum Sport, Jeunet 620, notable previous bikes P.K. Ripper loop tail, Kawahara Laser Lite, Paramount Track full chrome, Raliegh Internatioanl, Motobecan Super Mirage. 59 Crown royak 3 speed

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 763 Post(s)
Liked 1,675 Times in 601 Posts
Yes the Raleigh USA Pro comp frames & bikes both road and MTB do have have a bit of a following a lot of the stuff like this one were basically the best commercially sold frames bikes one could actually buy from shop in the US or UK and a were a few hundred dollars cheaper than the more Flasher Italian stuff so most were actually raced road a lot. Rare to see one that is not beat half to death which is actually a good comment for these owners actually liked to race ride them so not garage queens.
zukahn1 is offline  
Old 11-24-23, 09:55 AM
  #28  
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 1,458
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 609 Post(s)
Liked 1,901 Times in 647 Posts
Let me give you my perspective as a framebuilder. This 753 Raleigh frame has some advantages for a knowledgable person. First of all many enthusiasts don't realize that almost every tube manufacturing brand makes tubes with different wall thicknesses and diameters (Ý) and butt lengths. Those are what primarily determine the characteristics of the ride (all other things being the same like geometry) and not what brand made the tube. Most classic steel bicycles were made with .9/.6/.9mm wall thickness (like Columbus SL) or 1.0/.7/1.0 (like Columbus SP). In the 70's Reynolds came out with its 753 tubing. This tubing was heat treated so its thinner walls (sometimes but not always .7/.4/.7) would not get dented as easily. But also as a result of this treatment could not be cold set into alignment during the build process (like one could with 531). This makes building a frame with 753 much more difficult to do it accurate enough that it can be aligned within a high tolerance (there is no such thing as perfect alignment). Reynolds required that builders pass a test in order to make frames with 753. Otherwise there would be problems if made poorly and the reputation of 753 would suffer.

To put this 753 build difficulty into perspective, I was taking to Terry Bill at Reynolds in 1978. He told me that every single American up to that date had failed their test. None of them had built a frame that was either close enough in alignment or brazed with low enough temperature not to have hurt the steel. Eventually Americans did pass this test starting with Jim Merz. And Reyonlds eased off on the testing difficulty so they could sell more tubing.

I prefer the ride of a .7/.4/.7 frame over one with thicker walls. Their lighter weight is insignificant, the difference is in the feel of the frame. And yes I have made frames for myself with different wall thicknesses and I can tell the difference. Production manufacturers almost never made frames with 7/4/7 tubing. There is too much chance a fat person would ride and break it. So this Raleigh frame is one of the very few production frames made with very lightweight steel tubing. Most people that want to try one have to have them custom made. For another data point, I don't allow my framebuilding class students to build their frames with heat treated 7/4/7 tubing (unless I do the brazing of the main tubes for them). Building with it requires more experience.

I also would put the original fork back on this frame. Looking at the pictures, I think the black original fork is longer than the red fork. I'm speculating but I think that the owner wanted to switch brakes from a standard reach to a short reach. Nowadays people prefer using bigger tires and the original fork - with probably a 47/57 brake reach - can do that. The fork now on the frame i'm guessing is aluminum and put on to make the bike lighter. Also the red fork will change the geo of the frame a bit in a way its design was not intended.

I'd also lose all the parts and sell them separately. The bike equipped with that mishmash makes the frame appear to be cheaper than it really is. This frame is a chance for someone to try thinner walled tubing that for some will provide a superior ride (it sure does for me!). If the seller can explain to a potential buyer why thinner wall tubing is an advantage and hard to impossible to find in a production frame (some Japanese companies made some too), then that education can raise the value of the frame.

Last edited by Doug Fattic; 11-24-23 at 10:03 AM.
Doug Fattic is offline  
Old 11-26-23, 10:07 AM
  #29  
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 1,458
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 609 Post(s)
Liked 1,901 Times in 647 Posts
I'll add one more factor to this discussion. Reynolds 753 steerers had a much thinner wall thickness at their butted end so they are lighter. If you measure the inside diameter of the steerer of the Raleigh fork at the bottom of the fork crown, there should be a significant difference between it and the red fork. This is a much less important place to remove weight. I don't remember now what the wall thickness was on 753 fork blades compared to 531 blades but there might have been some difference too. Like being.9mm thick instead of 1.0. Maybe.
Doug Fattic is offline  
Old 11-27-23, 02:05 PM
  #30  
^ * * ^ * * ^
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: FL USA
Posts: 164

Bikes: 1977 Tom Kellogg Nr. 27 - 1984 Bob Jackson - 1987 Alpineer - 1999 Bianchi - 2002 LeMond Buenos Aries- 2007 Specialized Tarmac Pro - 2017 Mongoose Argus Comp FatBike - 2024 Gravity 29er 1-Speed Monstercross

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 280 Times in 93 Posts
As a collector of race bikes, 753 is indeed very desirable! I think $500 is a fair price. But most collectors are going to immediately strip the bike and do a proper build-out with all correct parts. FYI: The number hanger is a desirable feature but does not always indicate an actual team bike. Example: I had a 1985 Gitane Professionnel. It was their top-of-the-line consumer race bike but was not a special-built team bike. All Professionnels came with number hangers and I suspect the same here but that does not detract from the bike's desirability.

Also, while we're discussing 753 and Doug is 'here' I wonder how many have heard of Columbus KL? I had a frame built by Matt Assenmacher in 1979. We had discussed using 753 but for some reason decided to use Columbus KL (this was supposedly Columbus's version of 753). Maybe Matt was not yet certified for 753?? Or more likely, I chose the KL because it was more obscure Anyway, the tubes took months to arrive and there were only 5 sets of the tubing sent to the USA at that time. I remember also that the frame was silver soldered. Turned out to be an awesome frame and I put a LOT of miles on it. I was at the shop when we opened the box of tubes and I was disappointed that there was not a special frame decal proclaiming KL!! It was just a generic Columbus decal. So today, it would be near impossible to identify a frame with KL unless the build history was known.

Last edited by cegerer; 11-27-23 at 02:13 PM.
cegerer is offline  
Likes For cegerer:
Old 11-27-23, 08:37 PM
  #31  
framebuilder
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Niles, Michigan
Posts: 1,458
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 609 Post(s)
Liked 1,901 Times in 647 Posts
Matt Assemmacher and I are both from Michigan although his shop in Swartz Creek (near Flint) is/was 220 miles north/east from mine in Niles just above the Indiana border near Notre Dame University. He learned at Bob Jackson located in Leeds, Yorkshire in 1972 (i think) after graduating from Central Michigan University. I also learned in Yorkshire in 1975 at Ellis Briggs in Shipley after I had gotten all the necessary state certifications to teach high school. The 2 shops are in the same metropolitan area only 17 miles apart but you had to wind around city streets to get from one to the other so they seemed much further apart. Matt recently retired if I understand correctly.

To get certified to build with 753 tubing, one had to spend £45 to buy the tubing and build a complete frame to send to England for testing. That is quite a commitment. I never took the test at the time because 2 early Raleigh 753 frames came into my shop for repairs with broken chain stays. They had either made them too brittle or too thin. Eventually Reynolds got it figured out right but by that tike I was using heat treated Tange Prestige. Any of these complications could have derailed Matt from sending in a 753 test frame. Eventually Reynolds test kit was just a few short stubs and a bottom bracket shell so it was easy for me or anyone else to pass the test.

I did make a frame for a customer out of Columbus KL tubing. Maybe more than one. It was a lighter version of their SL set. Nice stuff.
Doug Fattic is offline  
Likes For Doug Fattic:
Old 12-01-23, 11:43 AM
  #32  
Edumacator
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Goose Creek, SC
Posts: 7,273

Bikes: '87 Crestdale, '87 Basso Gap, '92 Rossin Performance EL-OS, 1990 VanTuyl, 1980s Losa, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 1987 PX10, etc...

Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2347 Post(s)
Liked 2,844 Times in 1,820 Posts
Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
Matt Assemmacher and I are both from Michigan although his shop in Swartz Creek (near Flint) is/was 220 miles north/east from mine in Niles just above the Indiana border near Notre Dame University. He learned at Bob Jackson located in Leeds, Yorkshire in 1972 (i think) after graduating from Central Michigan University. I also learned in Yorkshire in 1975 at Ellis Briggs in Shipley after I had gotten all the necessary state certifications to teach high school. The 2 shops are in the same metropolitan area only 17 miles apart but you had to wind around city streets to get from one to the other so they seemed much further apart. Matt recently retired if I understand correctly.

To get certified to build with 753 tubing, one had to spend £45 to buy the tubing and build a complete frame to send to England for testing. That is quite a commitment. I never took the test at the time because 2 early Raleigh 753 frames came into my shop for repairs with broken chain stays. They had either made them too brittle or too thin. Eventually Reynolds got it figured out right but by that tike I was using heat treated Tange Prestige. Any of these complications could have derailed Matt from sending in a 753 test frame. Eventually Reynolds test kit was just a few short stubs and a bottom bracket shell so it was easy for me or anyone else to pass the test.

I did make a frame for a customer out of Columbus KL tubing. Maybe more than one. It was a lighter version of their SL set. Nice stuff.
I donít think I have ever seen a frame made from KL?
__________________
1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super












jdawginsc is offline  
Old 12-02-23, 12:47 AM
  #33  
Crawlin' up, flyin' down
 
bikingshearer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Democratic Peoples' Republic of Berkeley
Posts: 5,551

Bikes: 1967 Paramount; 1982-ish Ron Cooper; 1978 Eisentraut "A"; two mid-1960s Cinelli Speciale Corsas; and others in various stages of non-rideability.

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 972 Post(s)
Liked 2,353 Times in 985 Posts
Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
Let me give you my perspective as a framebuilder. This 753 Raleigh frame has some advantages for a knowledgable person. First of all many enthusiasts don't realize that almost every tube manufacturing brand makes tubes with different wall thicknesses and diameters (Ý) and butt lengths. Those are what primarily determine the characteristics of the ride (all other things being the same like geometry) and not what brand made the tube. Most classic steel bicycles were made with .9/.6/.9mm wall thickness (like Columbus SL) or 1.0/.7/1.0 (like Columbus SP). In the 70's Reynolds came out with its 753 tubing. This tubing was heat treated so its thinner walls (sometimes but not always .7/.4/.7) would not get dented as easily. But also as a result of this treatment could not be cold set into alignment during the build process (like one could with 531). This makes building a frame with 753 much more difficult to do it accurate enough that it can be aligned within a high tolerance (there is no such thing as perfect alignment). Reynolds required that builders pass a test in order to make frames with 753. Otherwise there would be problems if made poorly and the reputation of 753 would suffer.

To put this 753 build difficulty into perspective, I was taking to Terry Bill at Reynolds in 1978. He told me that every single American up to that date had failed their test. None of them had built a frame that was either close enough in alignment or brazed with low enough temperature not to have hurt the steel. Eventually Americans did pass this test starting with Jim Merz. And Reyonlds eased off on the testing difficulty so they could sell more tubing.

I prefer the ride of a .7/.4/.7 frame over one with thicker walls. Their lighter weight is insignificant, the difference is in the feel of the frame. And yes I have made frames for myself with different wall thicknesses and I can tell the difference.
Production manufacturers almost never made frames with 7/4/7 tubing. There is too much chance a fat person would ride and break it. So this Raleigh frame is one of the very few production frames made with very lightweight steel tubing. Most people that want to try one have to have them custom made. For another data point, I don't allow my framebuilding class students to build their frames with heat treated 7/4/7 tubing (unless I do the brazing of the main tubes for them). Building with it requires more experience.

I also would put the original fork back on this frame. Looking at the pictures, I think the black original fork is longer than the red fork. I'm speculating but I think that the owner wanted to switch brakes from a standard reach to a short reach. Nowadays people prefer using bigger tires and the original fork - with probably a 47/57 brake reach - can do that. The fork now on the frame i'm guessing is aluminum and put on to make the bike lighter. Also the red fork will change the geo of the frame a bit in a way its design was not intended.

I'd also lose all the parts and sell them separately. The bike equipped with that mishmash makes the frame appear to be cheaper than it really is. This frame is a chance for someone to try thinner walled tubing that for some will provide a superior ride (it sure does for me!). If the seller can explain to a potential buyer why thinner wall tubing is an advantage and hard to impossible to find in a production frame (some Japanese companies made some too), then that education can raise the value of the frame
.
And that, children, is why Grandpa will never own a 753 frame. At better than 18 stone, it would be, shall we say, ill-advised. I don't know that I would break a 753 frame, but I bet it would feel whippy as hell to me.
__________________
"I'm in shape -- round is a shape." Andy Rooney
bikingshearer is online now  
Old 12-02-23, 11:28 AM
  #34  
Paramount Fan
 
sbarner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Vermont
Posts: 278

Bikes: Paramounts, Raleigh Pros, Colnago, DeRosa, Gios, Masis, Pinarello, R. Sachs, Look, D. Moulton, Witcomb, Motobecane, Bianchis, Fat City, Frejus, Follis, Waterford, Litespeed, d'Autremont, others, mostly '70s-'80s

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked 225 Times in 124 Posts
An SB-prefixed serial number does not necessarily indicate that the frame was from SBDU Ilkeston. The SBDU serial numbers were not date-coded, but SB8438 is thought to be the last known frame from SBDU Ilkeston, after which production was moved to a section of the Nottingham operation in early 1987. I believe that at some point, RaleighUSA was importing the 753 frames from Raleigh England in primer, then painting them in the US to match the US models.

This makes the situation a bit like that of Masi USA where, to collectors, a Carlsbad frame is more desirable than a later version, even though the latter may be arguably a better frame, and a '74 or early '75 frame may command a much higher price than even a later Carlsbad frame. I've read screeds from Masiphiles who disparage anyone who values a us-built Masi frame over an Italian one, even if we all know that no one could tell the difference in the ride. Original paint SBDU frames command the highest prices, while Nottingham frames may generate little interest, and bonded 753 frames only yawns. BTW, the RaleighUSA 753 frame I have is was built in Nottingham sold with a painted-to-match bonded aluminum fork and there is a bit of a sawn-off number tab under the top tube that is covered by the original white paint.

Last edited by sbarner; 12-02-23 at 11:33 AM.
sbarner is offline  
Old 12-28-23, 11:20 PM
  #35  
Full Member
 
La Brea Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 463

Bikes: 02 Litespeed Ultimate, 84 & 85 Raleigh Grand Prix, '84 Raleigh Prestige, 85 Raleigh 555 RSL, '20 Raleigh Tamland, 38 Raleigh, 85 Landshark "Raleigh", '84 Marinoni Levi's Raleigh, SB4484, SB7979, Raleigh SSCXWC, 87 Raleigh USA 531 Prototype

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked 147 Times in 79 Posts
This is the SBDU Source. SBDU Blog Ľ My TI-Raleigh SBDU Blog Ľ Denton Cycles
La Brea Bike is offline  
Old 12-29-23, 07:25 PM
  #36  
Senior Member
 
zukahn1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fairplay Co
Posts: 9,496

Bikes: Current 79 Nishiki Custum Sport, Jeunet 620, notable previous bikes P.K. Ripper loop tail, Kawahara Laser Lite, Paramount Track full chrome, Raliegh Internatioanl, Motobecan Super Mirage. 59 Crown royak 3 speed

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 763 Post(s)
Liked 1,675 Times in 601 Posts
Not sure it matter's much but I'm pretty sure the paint fit and finish on this one were done in the US finish but there was a lot of Kaos at Raleigh could be built US UK or Italy. As many have said not much difference value wise.

Last edited by zukahn1; 12-29-23 at 07:30 PM.
zukahn1 is offline  
Old 12-29-23, 09:24 PM
  #37  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 1,834

Bikes: several Eddy Merz (ride like Eddy, braze like Jim!)

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 993 Post(s)
Liked 1,608 Times in 599 Posts
there was a SBDU Ilkeston sticker.
Bike sold. I know the value now.

Thank you all.
__________________
"Leave the gun. Take the Colnagos."
Robvolz is offline  
Old 01-05-24, 01:49 PM
  #38  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 372

Bikes: '71 Raleigh Inter, '98 Tommasini, '83 Trek 500, 83 Trek 720 '

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked 198 Times in 109 Posts
I think this frame as a true SB serial number is worth more than $500 on its own assuming no dents or damage.
i am surprised no one has mentioned Neil in the UK he has much knowledge on SBDU bikes...


https://www.youtube.com/@MyTIRaleighSBDU

iv'e found him to be very helpful in the past.
Gary12000 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.