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Identify an old with special transmission type

Old 12-15-09, 06:02 PM
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tiago semedo
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Identify an old with special transmission type

Hello to all of you e recently brouth this bicycle and i wol´d like to get some help identifying it someone told me if shold be french because of the type of lines painted on the frame the head badge it´s not original for shure can you please help me witch brand this bicycle could be?thanks.




























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Old 12-15-09, 06:43 PM
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OH that is very neat looking. I don't recall ever seeing a 'shaft drive' before
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Old 12-15-09, 07:10 PM
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COOooOOOOoooOOOLLLLL

All I can think of when I see this. It looks like it should be motorized haha
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Old 12-16-09, 05:13 AM
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I don't think it is French. A number of American companies produced shaft drive bicycles starting in the 1890s, and mostly giving up around WWI.

Does the coaster brake have anything stamped on it? Unfortunately, with as many non original parts on it, it might be tough to pinpoint a manufacturer.

I will hazard a guess that it is a Westfield/Columbia/Pope product, likely made right around 1900, which has been mostly replaced with newer parts, and is missing a few items to boot. The paint is not original, neither are the wheels, the fork, stem, etc.

Here's some photos of an 1898 Columbia chainless:




Note the bottom bracket and shaft drive are the same design as on your bike, though yours is missing the dust cover for the final drive.

http://oldbike.wordpress.com/1898-po...s-shaft-drive/

Last edited by Mos6502; 12-16-09 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 12-16-09, 12:51 PM
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The only thing that looks diferent to me is the rear hub that tooks staight head spokes instead of traditional spokes,and it looks that the hub is original what do you think? thanks best regards.
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Old 12-16-09, 01:08 PM
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My guess is Italian and my other guess is that the head badge and seat tube decal will tell us alot. Peugeot made shaft drive bikes back in the day but thats not a Peugeot.
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Old 12-16-09, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tiago semedo View Post
The only thing that looks diferent to me is the rear hub that tooks staight head spokes instead of traditional spokes,and it looks that the hub is original what do you think? thanks best regards.
Can you get a picture of it?

Do the spokes lock in like this?:
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Old 12-17-09, 05:19 AM
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Hello it is exactly the same type of spoke i will post more photos today can you tell me what it is for this caracteristic?Thanks best regards.
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Old 12-17-09, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by tiago semedo View Post
Hello it is exactly the same type of spoke i will post more photos today can you tell me what it is for this caracteristic?Thanks best regards.
do you mean the straight spokes? they were made straight for the same reason several companies have tried them over the years. straight spokes are thought to be stronger as there is no bend to cause a week spot.

if you mean the shaft drive, I would imagine it was designed to be different and advertised as being "safe" as your skirt or trousers (no spandex cladd ridders on these bikes *giggle*) would not get caught up in it.
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Old 12-17-09, 07:15 AM
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Ok, I'm certain it is a Columbia Chainless then. The ball end spokes were introduced in 1900, as was the coaster brake for these.

A picture may help narrow down the year, but maybe not. Columbia produced a million different models of these, and they went through a million variations over the years they were in production. With so much of the original bike having been replaced with newer parts, it may be impossible to know the exact year, but my initial guess of 1900 seems to still be pretty good.

Last edited by Mos6502; 12-17-09 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 12-17-09, 08:55 AM
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there you have other phothos thanks best regards.



















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Old 12-17-09, 08:56 AM
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some more














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Old 12-17-09, 08:59 AM
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more.


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Old 12-17-09, 05:24 PM
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I don't know too much about pre-WWI Columbias, but I believe the lack of markings on the coaster brake would indicate it is a pre-1902 model. So, assuming the coaster brake is original and not an upgrade your bike would have been made in either 1900 or 1901. There is a possibility that it could be an 1898 or 1899 model with a coaster brake added later though.

Obviously it would originally have had wooden wheels, no caliper brake, a different stem, etc. It looks like it could be restored, although the repair at the bottom bracket is questionable. And I have to admit the repaint is pretty neat even though it is nothing like the original paint would have been.

Last edited by Mos6502; 12-17-09 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 12-17-09, 11:38 PM
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More on the Pope/Columbia chainless drivetrain... (and chainless in general)...



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Old 12-18-09, 12:01 AM
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^^^^ interesting...

talking about exaggeration in advertisement... apparently not a new thing

those "early version" sketches look unridable. The top one has the bars about 2 inches from the tip of the saddle and the bottom one, the bars come behind the saddle tip. I cannot imagine trying to ride something like that...

What is interesting in the OPs bike is that supporting piece of tube brazing the rear hub. The non-drive side almost seems like a BMX front hub extension tube thingy (or whatever you call that). It looks like a later addition, but for a bike that has been around for 100+ years, one can assume that there were a lot of changes made. Another quasi-interesting about those transmissions/differentials (and I apologize if I am talking in automobile terms, but that's where that type of cog to cog contact is still going on) is that, at least in motorized vehicles, they were/are enclosed and live in a layer of lubricant to reduce damage from metal to metal friction. I wonder whether someone had to have an oil can with him/her riding and pouring oil before and after the ride back then...
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Old 12-18-09, 05:43 PM
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Hello i think i will not need to much parts to restore this bicycle just a pair of wood rims,a bar and a stem,i think the wooden rims i can buy from cherchi guisalo in italy just looking for a stem the type shown above and a bar like above on that columbia advertisement as long as the bike should´t have brake at the front weel at that time.Do you agree with me?Does anyone know were if can find a stem and a bar like that?Witch colour do you think the bike was at that time?Maybe black?If anyone as an idea or some more photos from one bicycle like this and can help me with this project i will be thankfull as i´am to all of you, i think with all the help you gave to me it that everything goes in the direction that this bicycle should be a columbia?Do you agree with me?Thanks again best regards.
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Old 12-18-09, 05:47 PM
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Hello again does anyone has an idea of how mutch one bike like this can value even like this not beeing restored yet?thanks best regards.
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Old 12-18-09, 06:12 PM
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The Chainless is a fairly common antique bike in the U.S. - I have seen some unrestored, complete examples (in so-so condition) go for around $400-$500. A nice one would be worth more, as well as one that has hard to find period accessories or options.

This one, which has the suspension system sold for $1,900 at auction:


As for finding the correct parts for a restoration, I would try these people: http://www.thewheelmen.org/
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Old 12-24-09, 05:37 PM
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Hello mary christmas to you all.

Took the paint from the rear hub.

The only thing i can see stamped is on the coaster brake saing.

Pat MAN 256
Feb.6.00
Feb.27.00

It looks there was something writhen on the hub body in the center of it but it was not too deep so i´ts allmoast impossible to understand what´s writeen there.

Do you think the 00 means 1900?


Thanks best regards.
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Old 12-24-09, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tiago semedo View Post
Do you think the 00 means 1900?
That would be my guess.

BTW, this thread prompted me to to look for more information on the Pope Manufacturing Company/Columbia chainless bikes, and I found that the University of Iowa library has an 1898 32-page Pope Manufacturing Company brochure describing the Columbia chainless bicycles in its collection. I ordered a photocopy and it was to have been mailed to me yesterday. I should have it in a couple of days, and if there is anything of interest in it I'll post scans of the pages on photobucket.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, too.
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Old 12-25-09, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Scooper View Post
That would be my guess.

BTW, this thread prompted me to to look for more information on the Pope Manufacturing Company/Columbia chainless bikes, and I found that the University of Iowa library has an 1898 32-page Pope Manufacturing Company brochure describing the Columbia chainless bicycles in its collection. I ordered a photocopy and it was to have been mailed to me yesterday. I should have it in a couple of days, and if there is anything of interest in it I'll post scans of the pages on photobucket.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, too.
That would be interesting.
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Old 12-25-09, 05:40 AM
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Another source to try is http://www.bikeville.com/

He'll charge you a premium, but this guy often has the insane parts you just can't get anywhere else. I'll be going to the antique sale portion of Trexlertown this year (a local track that has large sales twice a year) and will look for it if you haven't acquired it by then.
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Old 12-27-09, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Mos6502 View Post
That would be interesting.
The 1898 32-page Columbia Chainless catalog came yesterday, and I've uploaded jpg images of all 32 pages to Photobucket for anyone interested in this fascinating piece of bicycle history. The cover is in color, and the remaining pages are in black and white. Here's a small image of the cover:



Here are links to each page:

Page 01 (Cover)

Page 02 (Inside front cover)

Page 03

Page 04

Page 05

Page 06

Page 07

Page 08

Page 09

Page 10

Page 11

Page 12

Page 13

Page 14

Page 15

Page 16

Page 17

Page 18

Page 19

Page 20

Page 21

Page 22

Page 23

Page 24

Page 25

Page 26

Page 27

Page 28

Page 29

Page 30

Page 31

Page 32

1898 Columbia Price List
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Old 12-29-09, 05:33 AM
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That was quite a product launch!
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