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Your opinions please: Trek, Specialized, Miyata, Nishiki, etc.

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Your opinions please: Trek, Specialized, Miyata, Nishiki, etc.

Old 05-18-13, 10:39 PM
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Your opinions please: Trek, Specialized, Miyata, Nishiki, etc.

Hey everyone, I'd appreciate some help from anyone who has a better understanding of the 1980s/1990s road bike options than I do. I completely understand that the answer is "varies based on condition" & "buy whatever fits you best". This will be my first road bike and it's simply not practical to test ride more than one or two of these (not to mention I wouldn't know what to feel for at this point). If I can get a quick schooling in some basic, "XXX is commonly accepted as being a better bike than ZZZ" I'd really appreciate it.

[I'm looking for something for long distance city riding (50+ miles). I'm under the impression that I want something comfortable, fast, and lightweight -in that order. I don't need anything flashy/popular. I just want the most bike for my money. I'd like to move somewhat with traffic (20MPH+ if possible). I don't plan to climb any serious mountains etc. I'd like to keep it for 5-10 years, I'm interested in putting maybe $50-75 in upgrades into it depending. No fixies etc., just a nice long range road bike that will put a smile on my face for many years to come]

What I'm looking at (all used, 1980/90s, +/- $100 of each other):

Allez Pro
Bridgestone 700
Miyata 310
Miyata 912
Miyata 914
Nishiki Tri-A
Novara Strada (REI bike)
Specialized Epic (carbon fiber)
Trek 1200

What I can't find a general consensus about:
Lotus (Prestige), Fuji (Royale II), Nishiki (general), SR, Centurion (mostly LeMans/RS), Raleigh, Schwinn, Peugot (staying away from Peugot unless a PX10 falls from the sky seems like a good choice for me..)

Can I ignore this list of "seconds"? Been pretty much judging based on lugged/downtube shifters/700c/no extension levers/searching etc. Don't know what a good bike should "feel" like when ridden though.

Searching suggests the Miyata 912/914, Bridgestone 700, Trek 1200, & Specialized Epic all look like good candidates. I'm leaning towards the 912 or 700 at this point. The Epic seems cool but I know less about CF bikes than I know about steel (not much..)

I don't really know where to go from here, and would appreciate an overall take of my options from someone who is familiar with most of them. I really want to get riding again!



TL;DR: Which of the bikes listed is/are best for me to check out further? I want a fast/light road bike I can keep for 5-10 years. Not much steep hill climbing, no impressing my friends, just longg, mostly flat "commuting" pleasure. Willing to put $75 into resto/upgrading, but want to maintain the original bikes feel/character.

Last edited by josephtakagi; 05-18-13 at 10:56 PM. Reason: *added Raleigh & Schwinn to list of seconds
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Old 05-18-13, 10:48 PM
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The Trek 1200 is aluminum, I believe the others are steel.
The Miyata 310 is pretty basic compared to the 912, 914.
not familiar with the BS 700.

I'd ride the Allez and the two 900s.
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Old 05-19-13, 07:16 AM
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+1 $100 won't touch upgrades.

Go with the most comfortable one. I like the 900s also, but I have a bias towards Japanese bikes.
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Old 05-19-13, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by josephtakagi
[
What I'm looking at (all used, 1980/90s, +/- $100 of each other):


Can I ignore this list of "seconds"? Been pretty much judging based on lugged/downtube shifters/700c/no extension levers/searching etc. Don't know what a good bike should "feel" like when ridden though.


.
Oh boy. IMO you have to ride for awhile to have a sense of this, both in terms of bike fit, saddle choice, and the tradeoff between comfort and speed/responsiveness. Moreover, what feels "good" at the beginning of a ride might not feel good at the end, and what feels good to you now might not feel good in 6 months, a year, or two years. Advice from an internet forum is no substitute for riding.

I also agree with Bill's assesment of going vintage. I chased vintage for a few years. I don't regret it as I needed to get it out of my system, but unless you make vintage bike repair a hobby, it can get just as expensive as buying a new bike. The one thing I am glad of is, I followed the advice of my LBS to curb the urge to modernize a classic road bike. He told me he could do it, but that it would cost me as much as an entry level modern road bike. So I rode the vintage road bike for about 5 years as a vintage bike (classic drop bars, downtube shifters, original 27" wheels), with the only modern touches being a bike computer, modern saddle, and SPD mountain style pedals. I did spend money to replace brake pads, chain, tires, and freewheel, as these were worn out and needed to be replaced. All in, I put about $300 into the bike, got about $200 back when I sold the bike last year, and I managed to to salvage the saddle, computer, and pedals for future or current use. (saddle is now in use on wife's bike, pedals computer and seat bag on my current bike)

Last edited by MRT2; 05-19-13 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 05-19-13, 04:46 PM
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Thanks to those of you who answered my question about hierarchy


I seem to have been misunderstood so I'll steer the thread back on topic:

-I'm looking for a bike for long distance pleasure in (pretty much) the condition I buy it in.
-I'm willing to spend <$100 (<30-50%) if it'll provide a strong return on investment (something like a seat, used wheels, brake pads, tape, pedals, etc.)
-I'm looking for something that is a daily rider, that I can lock up on trips without too much worry etc.

What I am not looking to do:
-Modernize an old bike
-Have something competition worthy
-Swap everything out for the latest & greatest

*edit: I think the question I should be asking now is: Are there any Lotus, Fuji, Nishiki, SR, Centurion, Raleigh, Schwinn, Peugot, or Univegas comparable to the best bikes (Miyata/Allez) I've found in my price range so far?

I figure people were having fun riding long distances in the 80s/90s, I should be able to have fun for ~$200. I will repeat that I am not looking for anything extremely fancy (aftermarket), I just want some help finding the best bike for my money.


It probably would have been helpful to address that I have been avoiding brands on Craigslist. I understand that many of the companies I listed as second choices for me make some very nice bikes. However, I have found that the brands I listed are difficult to research- which (to me) suggests that I should stay away from them because I am not an educated enough buyer.

I clearly understand that something like a Schwinn Paramount or Nishiki International are great bikes. However, in my situation (noob), I have to spend 10-20 minutes each time I come across one of these brands to make sure I wouldn't be buying an overpriced $250 World Sport. If there are compilations of any of these brands vintage lineups that I have missed I'd appreciate a link or two. I meant to imply that I could be missing out on a nice bike by ignoring these brands, rather than doing myself a favor in an effort to save time.

For instance, I've read good things about some Centurion models, but I have no way of knowing how they compare to one of the nicer (re: more widely accepted) models I've found. As it is, I have to Google something like "Centurion LeMans vs. Miyata" to get a better understanding of things. It becomes even more difficult when keywords like "Miyata" relate to frame construction as well.

If the answer is simply, "you won't find a better vintage Centurion than a Miyata 912" well then I'd appreciate being able to put that energy towards a more productive direction, and simply look past any Centurions I come across. They are probably a great bike (for anyone irate at my random choice of example), but they may not be suited to my particular application, and that's fine. Contrarily, if the answer is, "the only Centurion you'll find that is comparably to an Allez is an XYZ", then I'd really appreciate that knowledge as well.


It's like shopping for a 1960-1995 used performance car. Some people want a Mustang II. Some people want a Buick GNX. Some people want a Honda S800 etc. There's no right answer. I'm just looking for the bike that is right for my situation. Any help that will steer me in the right direction would be much appreciated. Like I said, I need to start somewhere, and I'd appreciate the help getting starting somewhere close as opposed to picking up a Suburban and having to swim upstream (pedal uphill?)

So please, let's cut the off topic stuff. I know it won't be an A+ bike. I'm happy with anything I can get over 8.5/10.

Last edited by josephtakagi; 05-19-13 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 05-19-13, 05:44 PM
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There are plenty of bikes in that second tier you mention that would work just fine for your purposes.

I'll add a few more personal favorites to look for: All round tube aluminum Treks. Raleigh Technium series, with aluminum frame tubes bonded to cromoly lugs. Kabuki, both their steel only frames and their steel tube / cast aluminum lug frames with the quill seatposts. Surprisingly, older (british) Raleighs with 2040 hi-carbon steel tubing. I'm not afraid of Motobecanes and Peugeots, many fine bikes there. There are others, but this should get you started.

Oh, and by the way. The more different bikes you ride, the more you appreciate what separates one ride from another. So ride as many bikes as you can if possible, don't necessarily grab the first one you ride unless it speaks to you in a very strong fashion.
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Old 05-19-13, 06:17 PM
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Well I can tell you I currently own a shogun 400 and Kuwahara Newport that I love to ride (2nd and 3rd teir brands). The Allez is a great bike and I still stand by the 912/914. I think you'll be happy with the bang for the buck.

Last edited by BruceHankins; 05-19-13 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 05-19-13, 06:18 PM
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Actually, pretty much all of the questions you have asked have been asked before. If you have time to write a lengthy entry, you should be able to research what you want or a bike you come across right on Bikeforums. Better to use google to search bikeforums than the built in search engine.

One strategy is to search specific frame tubing, ie Columbus SLX, Reynolds 501 or 531, or Tange 2. Another way is by component group, such as Shimano tricolor, Dura Ace, Ultegra, Tiagra, Suntour Superbe, etc.

While some guys luckier than most of us get handed or find Eddie's, Colnagos, PX10's, Team Champions, or Paramounts, for well under FMV, as a noob, you'd be about as likely as winning the Powerball lottery.

Good luck!
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Old 05-19-13, 06:27 PM
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The reason this thread has gone "off topic" is because the original question doesn't have one simple answer. Almost every manufacturer made a full line of bikes, from crap to amazing. If you're looking at a specific bike you just have to find out where it fell in the manufacturers hierarchy through research and old catalogs. A better way to do it though, is to judge each bike based on frame tubing and components. This requires no research once you are familiar with tubing levels and components. For example: hi-ten -> straight gauge chromoly -> butted chromoly -> fancy stuff like Reynolds/Columbus/etc.

Any of the bikes you posted in the original post would be fine for what you intend to do. But saying one is "better" than the other is completely impossible without knowing the condition and price.

The one exception to this is the Specialized Epic. As a noob I would avoid old carbon frames as it is particularly difficult to judge how sound they are. I had an Epic and I liked it, but I sometimes feel I got lucky that it never broke on me.

Originally Posted by josephtakagi
So please, let's cut the off topic stuff...
You have much to learn Threads almost never stay on topic. And frankly, I don't think this one ever got off.
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Old 05-19-13, 07:25 PM
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Jake, I've dealt with a boatload of 90's-era carbon tube/aluminum lug road bikes like the Epic/Epic Pro, Trek composite, Giant Cadex, etc. I've never run across one that had any frame integrity issues. I remember I once bought a Trek composite (from Stoughton, of all places) that had been left outside for awhile and had some kind of salt exposure that had started eating into the carbon surface - but the frame was solid as ever!

I think these bikes suffered a bad rep they didn't deserve, maybe based on horror stories of Vitus or Alan bonded frames separating or some such. They might not be the lightest frames by today's standards, but the ride is pretty darn nice for what it is, which is why there were lots sold and still lots around. I'm not afraid of flipping or buying these in the least unless there is obvious damage which is a dealbreaker.
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Old 05-19-13, 09:44 PM
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Thanks for all the input. I decided to pick up the Miyata 912 and am looking forward to getting more familiar with it. The quick ride I went on tonight felt great, light, maneuverable, quick.. felt like a really nice quality bike. Trying to cram 30 years of biking history into 3 weeks has taken its toll
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Old 05-20-13, 03:37 AM
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Congrats, hope you enjoy your new bike!
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Old 05-20-13, 10:45 AM
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Congratulations on the Miyata 912 selection. I would have recommended that, or the newer 914 version.

I just rebuilt my very old, but still good condition 912 with modern components (I know that is not your intention), and its nearly as nice a ride as my Rivendell Rambouillet. The only exception was the steeper seat tube on the 912, which made it impossible to get a Brooks leather seat back far enough for my very long legs. But that isn't a problem most would have.

For the 50+ mile rides you plan, expect to spend some time trying different saddles and their position. I solved my setback problem on the 912 with a leather Selle An-Atomica saddle, and already have a taller stem to get the bars up where I like them at this (less flexible) time of my life.

If your 912 doesn't have good brake pads (Kool Stop salmons are highly preferred) or dual-pivot brake calipers, I'd recommend both of those as worthwhile and less expensive upgrades for safety.
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Old 05-21-13, 04:53 AM
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Honestly I think Fuji makes a great bike. They are relatively inexpensive compared to Trek.

I road a Fuji touring bike for years and recently picked up a Sportif 1.1
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Old 05-27-13, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Dfrost
Congratulations on the Miyata 912 selection. I would have recommended that, or the newer 914 version.

I just rebuilt my very old, but still good condition 912 with modern components (I know that is not your intention), and its nearly as nice a ride as my Rivendell Rambouillet. The only exception was the steeper seat tube on the 912, which made it impossible to get a Brooks leather seat back far enough for my very long legs. But that isn't a problem most would have.

For the 50+ mile rides you plan, expect to spend some time trying different saddles and their position. I solved my setback problem on the 912 with a leather Selle An-Atomica saddle, and already have a taller stem to get the bars up where I like them at this (less flexible) time of my life.

If your 912 doesn't have good brake pads (Kool Stop salmons are highly preferred) or dual-pivot brake calipers, I'd recommend both of those as worthwhile and less expensive upgrades for safety.
Thanks for the tips. I have a feeling I wont be pushing the limits of the 912 for a longgg time The bike came with:
~3.5" handlebar riser
-Selle Italia gel flow saddle
-700c x 23 Armadillo tires & Alex R450 wheels- Shimano hubs
-Original Shimano 600 components (think the brake levers & handlebars have been changed)
-Padded handlebar tape
-Sakae SR handlebars

I've put ~25 miles on it & trying to get into it slowly, longest ride was ~15 miles at just over an hour in traffic. The bike feels great, I'm liking it.

The brake suggestion is appreciated; the front feels good but the rear is a bit dry/mushy. I can't tell if it's the wheels/tires, pads, or both. It has the original Shimano 600 calipers with what look like an ordinary black pad (YSB PSC C markings). I'll be checking out the Kool Stops for sure.

I plan on waiting at least 200 miles & a couple months before making any major changes. So far the comfort is hit or miss. Sometimes the saddle disappears and other times its like I'm sitting on a brick. I'm playing with tire pressure & seat position.

In progress:
-helmet
-lock
-lights/road supplies (patch kit, pump, etc.)

Plans include:
-a shorter stem to bring the handlebars closer to me
-front and/or rear rack
-saddle bag or frame bag

and maybe a new seat (those Brooks look realllly nice) if I don't adjust to the current one. If I can find something as comfortable as the taped handlebars I'll be set for 50 if my legs can keep up. I've been trying to figure out whether getting a spare set of 700c x 25 or wider would be worthwile- depends how these work out I guess.

*edit- put another 13 miles on tonight
The current Shimano 600 brakes look like this
Which look similar to the Shimano 105 (these)
Google suggests that these Kool Stop inserts *should* be compatible. Can't argue with $7.14 shipped from Amazon.

Planning on ordering one pair (black) to try out. Anyone have a reason not to? The Salmon/pink color has more recommendations but rain and snow are rare (Los Angeles)

Last edited by josephtakagi; 05-27-13 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 06-03-13, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by josephtakagi
Thanks for the tips. I have a feeling I wont be pushing the limits of the 912 for a longgg time ...

I've put ~25 miles on it & trying to get into it slowly, longest ride was ~15 miles at just over an hour in traffic. The bike feels great, I'm liking it.

The brake suggestion is appreciated; the front feels good but the rear is a bit dry/mushy. I can't tell if it's the wheels/tires, pads, or both. It has the original Shimano 600 calipers with what look like an ordinary black pad (YSB PSC C markings). I'll be checking out the Kool Stops for sure.

and maybe a new seat (those Brooks look realllly nice) if I don't adjust to the current one. If I can find something as comfortable as the taped handlebars I'll be set for 50 if my legs can keep up. I've been trying to figure out whether getting a spare set of 700c x 25 or wider would be worthwile- depends how these work out I guess.

*edit- put another 13 miles on tonight
The current Shimano 600 brakes look like this
Which look similar to the Shimano 105 (these)
Google suggests that these Kool Stop inserts *should* be compatible. Can't argue with $7.14 shipped from Amazon.

Planning on ordering one pair (black) to try out. Anyone have a reason not to? The Salmon/pink color has more recommendations but rain and snow are rare (Los Angeles)
it wouldn't surprise me if the brake pads you have are the originals, so they have surely degraded/changed consistency over the decades!

The first link you provided is for canti brakes, which never have been on a 912. The second link (Shimano 105) points to those that first came on 912's. Dual pivot brakes like the Tektro 539's linked below will work MUCH better when you get to that level of upgrade, but you'll want advice at that time to be sure you get the correct reach and bolt type for your frame.

https://harriscyclery.net/product-lis...00/?rb_ct=1493

The pads you linked will work, but you would then also need the pad holders like these:

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...15&category=36

A simpler solution (for now) would be these:

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopp...35&category=36

I would still strongly suggest the salmon color regardless. There are no downsides to that compound - they last a long time, and when the rim is wet, the difference is amazing. Heck, they are amazingly better even dry. I put them on my son's bike when he was first using adult size levers with small hands, and the salmon pads made the difference between stopping on a steep hill and not.

I would also strongly recommend going with bigger tires right from the start. The 912 has lots of tire clearance, and there are some fabulous bigger tires that will ride much better, and are NOT slower. Panaracer Paselas in 25, 28, 32 and 35mm widths are widely available and excellent quality (and the Tourguard version adds some flat protection). There are even better ones (for more money) from Compass Cycles. Bigger tires have the considerable benefit that they do not require such high pressures. I use 70/85 psi in the 28mm tires on my 912, and 65/75 psi in my Grand Bois Cypres (31mm) on my Rivendell. I'd suggest something like the 28mm Pasela as a good entry into nice, bigger tires. REI sells them, as well as many online retailers.

https://harriscyclery.net/product/panaracer-pasela-tourguard-622-700c-belted.-wire-bead-1731.htm

https://www.compasscycle.com/tires.html

Brooks and similar leather saddles are, indeed, fabulous. As I noted in my first post here, one thing about the 912 is its slightly steeper seat tube, which means that it can be more difficult to get a seat with short rails, like all Brooks, far enough back, if that's what your body requires. The recent solution for me and my very long femurs on my 912 was a Selle An-Atomica leather saddle with significantly longer rails, and they generally have a cutout to avoid perineal nerve pressure.

https://www.selleanatomica.com/

I've probably passed the "Too Much Information" threshold, so I'll stop here.

Last edited by Dfrost; 06-03-13 at 01:37 PM.
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