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New member trying to establish value

Old 07-13-14, 03:09 PM
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USARET
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New member trying to establish value

Howdy.

Old time bike rider with a couple of bikes for which I'd like to establish a value. I'm not trolling to sell them here. I've been out of biking for a long while and have zero contacts in the sport anymore. I built these are classics for myself and my wife. She has fallen into ill health and I'm afraid to dirty the Mens Paramount as I have another bike I can ride in our sandy conditions down in Florida

First is a 1969 Mens Waterford Paramount, fully restored to original condition w/ original decals set clear coated on paint. Bike originally came with a full Campy racing group from the factory (fairly rare I understand). Corncob rear gearset, Crank, hubs, derailers, pedals ,everything that routes cables are chrome and campy stamped), levers, sidepull brakes all Campagnolo , Serial numbers verified by Schwinn as a 1969 build. Red Pearl re-paint (flawless)

Second is Womens 1974 Waterford Paramount fully restored w/ original decal set clear coated on paint, Weineman brakes but everything else is Campy (cranks, rear gears, hubs, pedals etc.). Seat is Titanium railed (could not find an original, so this one was a nice upgrade). Emerald Green re-paint (flawless)

Neither have been ridden since restore 18 years ago. In boxes. I have no idea what these are worth. I have approx $500 in time and materials to makes these bikes complete) Was thinking of asking $500 for the pair to get my money out of them (not counting price of the original bikes). Is that fair price for Waterford Paramounts of that vintage) Or am I low or high?

Either of these bikes could sit in a store window and pass for brand new.

Thanks for any advice
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Old 07-13-14, 03:22 PM
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I'm not particularly a Paramount fan and don't follow their pricing, but you may be leaving money on the table. Post some pictures to a web album and send a link.

Member 'Scooper' is the impeccable source on these.
Try posting in the valuation forum with a title something like '1969 & 1974 Paramount'. Take pictures if you want a reasoned response.
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Old 07-13-14, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by USARET View Post
......... am I low or high?

Either of these bikes could sit in a store window and pass for brand new.

Thanks for any advice
If they are in the condition you described,......Low..... quite low IMO......
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Old 07-13-14, 03:36 PM
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Go back to Bike Forums, and the sub-forum just below Classic and Vintage is followed by folks who are willing to take a shot at valuing your bikes. Good pictures and descriptions of components will make their evaluation much more accurate.

You are quite low. I'm surprised some cheapskate here has not sent you the money already at warp speed. Even at $500 each, you'd probably be courting flippers.
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Old 07-13-14, 03:46 PM
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With all due respect, USARET, some here view such first posts with just a grain of salt. And a healthy dash of skepticism. No offense of course, but some posts like this aren't always legit. And there's even a nickname for this phenomena that those with more investment in the internet than I have use, that has to do with a creature that lives under bridges.
But I take it at face value and just assume you're query is sincere, and a little naive. A friendly suggestion. Do some internet research. Shouldn't be too hard to discover given about an hour's worth of time that these two bikes are worth far more than the figure you mention. Yours are seventies prices. In fact, those two bikes couldn't have been bought for that little even back then. These things have become quite collectible in the interim. And worth more than they were when new. Much more in the condition you describe.
We'd love to see some pictures of them.
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Old 07-13-14, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
With all due respect, USARET, some here view such first posts with just a grain of salt. And a healthy dash of skepticism. No offense of course, but some posts like this aren't always legit. And there's even a nickname for this phenomena that those with more investment in the internet than I have use, that has to do with a creature that lives under bridges.
But I take it at face value and just assume you're query is sincere, and a little naive. A friendly suggestion. Do some internet research. Shouldn't be too hard to discover given about an hour's worth of time that these two bikes are worth far more than the figure you mention. Yours are seventies prices. In fact, those two bikes couldn't have been bought for that little even back then. These things have become quite collectible in the interim. And worth more than they were when new. Much more in the condition you describe.
We'd love to see some pictures of them.
There are conflicting things about the description that leave me thinking- without images, I cannot comment much.
Here are a few:

1969 and Waterford do not go together. One kind of came as a result of the other, but this is just dropping terms in the same Schwinn soup.

Repaint… often hurts the value more than it helps. (Even if it was done by Waterford Cycles)

Sitting in boxes for 18 years… bad things happen when sitting in boxes too.

The research is not that hard to do as rootboy suggested.

If from 1969, Campagnolo brakes are indeed rare, and could be very rare if the brakes are from 1968.
As to the cost, when new in 1969, I don't think you could have ordered a single Paramount to cost $500, maybe a full Campagnolo tandem.
But that does not mean too much, other than the Paramounts were Schwinn's top of the line back then.
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Old 07-13-14, 04:07 PM
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My question would be who restored them and why? I am not expert on Paramounts but I am thinking unless Waterford (Or whoever was doing warranty work then) didn't restore them then that hurts the value
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Old 07-13-14, 05:32 PM
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Thanks for the responses. I'll have to pull them out and put the front wheels on each of them to get some pictures.

I was very big into biking many years ago (when I was young). I bought both bikes over time, with the intent to restore myself. The 1969 is the more unique for sure. It was also the most complete of the two (missing only the original front wheel). At the time I was restoring, the fellow that rebuilt the front wheel said the bike was pretty unique with the Campy racing group that was on the bike. I had to find a Campy hub and have a new front wheel built as the one that was on the bike was not original and I wanted to keep the bike full Campy. Even back in the late 80's Campy parts were quite expensive. The used hub was something like $50 + the wheel rebuild.

Wife's bike was another whole story, I found a nice men's 1970's series Paramount with full Campy, but needed a womans. I found a 1974 Womans Paramount without wheel or crank or seat. Bought both and put all the Campy parts on to the Womans bike. That when I discovered the Campy sidepulls would not work on the rear (do to the cross member not allowing the clearance necessary). I tried to locate that custom piece off my bike but could not find it anywhere. Wife's bike has the original Weiniman brakes and I have an extra set of Campy side pulls. The mans Paramount which I scavenged the parts off of must have been a late 70's model as it did not need that extra custom piece to fit the rear Campy side pull.

Both bikes were painted by a professional car painter (custom), they are flawless. I realize having the factory redo them would have been the way to go, but I elected to stay local with the paint (as he had a larger palette from which to choose). I ordered a full decal set from Schwinn for both bike including the badges and had the painter clear coat the decals when he painted the bike. Used old catalogs which I was able to locate at an old bike shop and see how the decals were placed (they gave me those catalogs to keep). The 1969 bike rear brake side pull is unique as there was a custom made piece, which I believe was a factory fix to mount the rear side caliper. The frame cross member was not positioned properly for the Campy side pull but was made for the the center pull Weinemans. I'll shoot a pix of it when I get the bike out


I sent pix of the frame to the Waterford factory for examination. The best they could tell me it was a late 68-69 build based on the chrome lugs on the frame. I had 1968-1976 Schwinn catalogs and the letters from the Waterford guys but threw it all away a few years back when we did house cleaning.

These have been gathering dust and thought I should consider selling them, but wanted to get a feel for what they are worth. I'm not a complete Idiot, knowing that anyone that has a love of bikes knows these are worth $400-500 each, but today, you can get bikes for $119 at Walmart, and that's the type of area I live in now. (Retired in Florida). Beach cruisers or Huffy Clunkers. (another reason I never rode them down here with the salty sand)

I do see guys riding nice road bike in our area but these are the new Carbon Fiber models and are used for training and daily use. Not sure what the market is for bikes like the old Paramounts. I thought they would be a nice window display in a high end Schwinn bike shop. Certainly the young trainers don't want them and the old coots like me want a cruiser or a beater to ride.

I know it may seem like this is one of those "old Corvette in the hay barn" type of story, but it really isn't. These bikes may not be exactly perfect, down to the last bolt original, but they are really nice restored representatives of that era. My wife's 1974 (was build the year we got married), my 1969 (was built the year I joined the Army). So, by sheer luck, there is a bit or personal nostalgia attached to each (for us anyway).
Both of the bikes are probably older than most of the readership I'd wager.

Guess I'll head out the garage and pull the boxes out and see what they look like. I'll shoot some pix and post them in the next day or so.

Again, thanks for the help.

Side note, I am a moderator for another unrelated forum, so I am aware at how a 1st post like mine might appear. Troll (to fire up the membership) or some kook looking for a thrill. Believe me. Neither of those apply i my case. Just someone looking for a little guidance. :-) And not soliciting buyers.
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Old 07-13-14, 06:00 PM
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"Both of the bikes are probably older than most of the readership I'd wager. "

I wouldn't take that bet. Many, if not most of us who hang out here and into vintage bikes are old farts, like yourself.
The bikes sound real nice. If they've survived the long storage in a Florida garage without too much degradation to the chromed bits,
you should get at least 500 hundred a piece. More for the men's bike, depending on size.
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Old 07-13-14, 06:06 PM
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Need pics to have any kind of meaningful discussion...
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Old 07-13-14, 06:16 PM
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Some quick shots of the mens. Just took it out of the box, assembled it (bars seat froont wheel and shot the pix. Getting dark.. Open Womans and it;'s in same condition, Pix will follow when suncomes up.

Both could use a clean rag rubbed over then and a bit of polish, but you can see, this one is very clean.
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Old 07-13-14, 06:19 PM
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I think we need some pics of the bikes out of the boxes and basically in running shape to give a fair evaluation. I would guess they are worth more than $500. Based on current info my WAG guess would be $600 or so for each they are Chicago Paramount's not a waterford but that doesn't hurt and may help value.

Last edited by zukahn1; 07-13-14 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 07-13-14, 06:22 PM
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"He had a larger palette to chose from"? So this is not the original color?

The woman's bike is not all original?

What is the deal with the rear braked mounting?



Is that a domed QR lever?
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Old 07-13-14, 07:10 PM
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Bianchigirll, I think that is a drop bolt to lower the caliper.
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Old 07-13-14, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TugaDude View Post
Bianchigirll, I think that is a drop bolt to lower the caliper.
But why do you need a drop bolt for the OEM brakes?
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Old 07-13-14, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
But why do you need a drop bolt for the OEM brakes?
Scooper is the expert but I'd bet Campy only had one version of those sidepulls at the time and they didn't quite reach down to 700c rims. I'm assuming original spec was tubulars? The frame was apparently constructed with the brake bridge set up for centerpulls.

Here is an interesting thread on the subject...

http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...info-pics.html

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Old 07-13-14, 09:58 PM
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The Mens Paramount shipped with Weinmann brakes no doubt, notice the top tube cable stops are ignored and Campagnolo clips are used with a full length housing. The stops are on the wrong side for Campagnolo calipers. The clearances are wrong too. No telling what size wheel this bike was built for in mind. A provenance report from Waterford could clear that up.

This bike was built no doubt in the Paramount Room of Schwinn's Chicago factory. By the lug set, '68-69. The Prugnaut lugs used then and not as sought after as the Nervex Professional lugs used just before and after. Something in the chrome looks wrong to me, Bad clear? Bead blasted? Something. The color is non standard, for value that is a hit. It is missing the unique Schwinn lug lining of the period, the paint termination on the forks and stays is non standard, a debit to value. The masking of the chrome on the lower head lug on the left side is not clean enough. I consider this respray to be utilitarian, not restoration.

The Campagnlo brakes are from a set made post 1976. (If they had been the "no name" type from 1968.... and the frame made to fit them there would be a completely different story here).

Chainrings are undersized for the big ring anyway, almost "junior racer gearing" of the time, a small knock on value to most, no telling of they are Campagnolo rings or not from here, they have been modified and the inner webbing cut away.

The bike is clean it appears, under $1000. , best guess, $600-750.

Last edited by repechage; 07-14-14 at 07:23 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-13-14, 10:11 PM
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If it's a 69 men's Paramount frame, the brakes are not original. Note the cupped quick release lever end on the caliper in the pics. which I think means = later than at least 72.....
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Old 07-14-14, 04:34 AM
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Yeah. Both the brake set and crank set look later, to me. Hubs too. Possibly added at the time of the respray? I'll bet the bike was built for 27 inch wheels and those on there now are 700c tubulars. Hence the rather strange "drop bolt". Looks as though the brake reach was just a tad shy of deep enough. The original wheels likely would have been on large flange Record hubs too, I would think.
And I agree on the paint job.
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Old 07-14-14, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
"He had a larger palette to chose from"? So this is not the original color?

The woman's bike is not all original?

What is the deal with the rear braked mounting?



Is that a domed QR lever?
I don't get this either maxed in/up brakes with 4/5mm+ of play and 4mm or so drop plate seems a bit odd.
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Old 07-14-14, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by TugaDude View Post
Scooper is the expert but I'd bet Campy only had one version of those sidepulls at the time and they didn't quite reach down to 700c rims. I'm assuming original spec was tubulars? The frame was apparently constructed with the brake bridge set up for centerpulls.

Here is an interesting thread on the subject...


http://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...info-pics.html

The drop bolt is not a Camagnolo part, it is a USA machine shop created unit, the offset is too great, it has an aluminum center segment.

As others have mentioned there are a number of other later Campagnolo replacement parts, they are of the correct model level but an owner's choice, not period accurate to the frame.
I too think the original wheels were 27" clinchers. Not that uncommon on Paramounts back then, the Schwinn shop audience would find those a benefit.
Lastly, tall guys are cheap. Just how it is for them. They as a collective whole get the better deals.
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Old 07-14-14, 08:26 AM
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Rear gears are Campy on both bikes. The Wife's bike have a much larger gear set with wider spacing.

I pulled this bike out of the storage box after 18 years yesterday for some quick photos before dark. What may appear as overspray is not. Before we moved I spayed the frame and shiny parts with a preservative to preclude rust. It has a redish tint to its when dry. It wipes off cleanly. Each bike was wrapped in paper and stored in Schwinn boxes for our move to Florida. All parts were insulated from each other so no scratching or dings work occur. I am pretty anal when it comes to my projects.

The chrome and frame need to be wiped down on both. The chrome does shine like new as does the paint. Honestly I have no reason to lie to anyone on this issue.

I bought the Man's bike with all the components pictured except for the front wheel which I had built on a matching Campy hub to the rear. The pedals, toe clip and webbing are all Campy too.

My Wife's bike's wheels are built on Mavic dark rims with the Large Flange Campy hubs. I wanted to stay with the polished aluminum rims on the Men's bike as it looks cleaner with the other polished parts (and looked like a late 60's racer). Pix to follow shortly of the 1974. (after I wipe it down a bit and assemble it).

I still have the Men's frame in the attic that the Campy parts came off of when building my wife's bike. I'll grab it and take a picture. It may turn out that putting that Men's bike back together may be a better option than the woman's bike. It was a complete Campy group bike also (somewhere in the 1970's year range)

The black accents where the chrome stays meet the frame were done by my painter to add a more finished look to the job. I liked the effect even though may not be original to bike.

Quite honestly I had no intention of doing this when I made my initial inquiry, but now that Pandora's box is open, I will continue to see what more I can learn. The tires on both bike will need to be replaced since the heat has not done them any favors.

Again, neither of these bikes were refurbished with hopes of getting a "gold Certification" but more as a project where we could have two classic Paramount bikes that have top end groups, and look like brand new.

I got the idea to sell them but wanted to get a value so I wouldn't be giving them away. Was hoping to get a couple of hundred + for each but thought that was way too low (since I know what it did cost to redo these bikes ..not counting the initial cost each bike involved), so I posted here to get a more realistic value. Then perhaps offer them at a big discount and have some ammunition when the buyer tries to say they are worth far less.

I've lost the fire to set up either bike for riding. It's too hot and I'm too old. Both were originally stripped to the frame, parts relubed/greased and assembled after painting. Took care to keep as much of the original hardware with the bikes and only added things that were totally worn out (seats and tires). I did do a major swap of part to get the Campy wheels and crank set (and all other Campy parts I could) on me Woman's (as I wanted to get the female equivalent of the men's..... remember built these for my wife and myself to ride in Florida)
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Old 07-14-14, 08:49 AM
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A protective spray can well explain the cloudy chrome. But the LH lower head lug masking looks off as it presents the head tube, the masking was not detailed enough.
When asking about value, one has to forget the money expended. Restoring bikes is not a money making business.

It is the condition and perceptions of a potential buyer that matter on a bike as it sits, the story behind is interesting but not germane.
Many want original. Especially paint.
Wise choice to keep the silver color to the men's bike wheels. 700c is a good choice as the selection of tires now is vast.
Often "period correct" is also a standard of top value.
Campagnolo toe clips did not come out for another decade, they are good but Christophe was OEM.
The changes do not diminish the utility of the bike and are at the component level that was original to the bike just not accurate. Hence they limit value.

Recently on the C&V sales forum a similarly sized Paramount frame was offered, nice paint, some braze ons added, incorrect color done to a high standard, correct decals, nice but non standard lug lining. All hits to value. Just how it is. Paramounts often are found in decent or better original paint condition, those are the frames competing for the top dollars. Often these bikes got purchased and barely used to the benefit of collectors today.
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Old 07-14-14, 09:51 AM
  #24  
USARET
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Last set of Pictures. Did a bit more wipe down on the wife's to show condition. Chrome does shine, just takes a bit of rubbing to get the film off. Included is the yellow bike frame which I scavenged parts from. Withot preservative, chrome did not fair well at all. The bike was well used when I bought it 20+ years ago and had some rust, from wet use and lack of car. The thing was coated with road tar also.

Photo of bikes together was the husband and wife set I was shooting for. All comments are welcome.

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Old 07-14-14, 09:56 AM
  #25  
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They're both sweet bikes. It can be tough selling a high dollar vintage bike on your local CL. Ebay can work better but there are extra headaches involved with using that. You can also become a BF member and try to sell your bikes via this site. These are cool bikes.
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