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francophile 06-20-16 02:51 PM

1972 Peugeot PR-10 (59cm)
5 Attachment(s)
Picked this up on fleabay recently. Seller failed to disclose the spread & modified RDO and the cracked seat lug (lots of pics below). I was only able to get a partial refund, and I'm left with shame for not trusting my gut.

Not sure how I feel about the damage -- feedback welcome -- all things considered. If you have enough posts to send PMs, talk to me.


  • Measures: CTT on seat tube is right in between 59-60cm, CTC on top tube ~58cm. S/N on the BB plate is 2224360 which suggests 1972.
  • The Good: Reynolds 531 main triangle, no significant dents I can see, inner tubes appear clean, steer tube threads are clean, fork is corked.
  • The Bad: Typical lever clamp gouges on DT, some surface rust, several chips, hairline crack in the seat lug (appears limited to lug only), rear DO slot is bent, hanger modified for non-Simplex RD.

Hi-res pics
: 1972 PR10 - Album on Imgur

Low-res pics of the overall frame and bad spots described above for the heck of it:

zazenzach 06-20-16 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by francophile (Post 18858973)
I was only able to get a partial refund, and I'm left with shame for not trusting my gut.

Care to provide more details of your situation? I buy and sell quite a bit over there and know the rules well enough to offer advice. Unless your goal is to flip this for a profit, there's no reason you shouldn't be fully covered by ebay.

All you should have to do is file an "item not as described" case and the seller has to pay postage both ways and you also get your full purchase price and postage back.

Off hand, I think you are covered through ebay for 30 days after delivery date. On paypal, you are covered for atleast 3 months (it might be 5-6 I forget) after delivery.

francophile 06-20-16 09:19 PM

Well, If you want me to explain what a putz I am, here's the full backstory :D

Watched the frame for 3 auction cycles and on the 3rd cycle the price finally dropped enough I was interested and I asked the seller for more pics and whether any dents or cracks existed. Seller claimed nothing significant was wrong with the frame, no dents or cracks existed, and eventually sent more pics, albeit blurry. In hindsight they may've been strategically blurry on purpose, I'll never know. Maybe it was a scam and the seller had 99.8% positive feedback with way more sales/buys than me because they're good at negotiating their scams? Anyway, I bid, I won, and they shipped.

Got the frame, within 2-3 minutes of partial unpack I noticed the damage shown above so I filed a "not as described" claim. Full disclosure: In hundreds of sales/buys on eBay I've never been worked-over as a buyer and I was just walking away from a situation where a buyer tried to screw me on something I sold which I knew was 100% perfectly OK (had video proof it was OK when shipped), so I had a little extra empathy for the seller knowing they told me early on they knew little or nothing about bikes and they didn't see the damage before shipping. Am I a sucker? Probably, but I tend to hope for the best in people and I'm an optimist when it comes to other humans. Blame it on my folks for instilling values and empathy in me during my youth. :)

Still, for the sake of justice, I went ahead with a dispute with seller over the ~$90 I had in the frame and shipping because I didn't want to walk away totally out-of-pocket. I wasn't sure who was at fault in this case. Was I at fault for not asking for a 2nd or 3rd round of clearer pictures which the seller may not have been able to provide? Or was the seller at fault due to their ignorance of bikes? Or was it a little of both? I dunno, I saw the dropout in the auction, so I knew it at least had something going on, but didn't expect what I got. I could've been a prick and said it's totally their fault, then really stuck it to them, but that's not my style. I opted to try for a break-even to both of us - that's me, always looking for a positive outcome.

First round of negotiating, the seller offered some penny-ante BS number back like $25, acting pissed as if I was trying to scam them, claiming "I had to know what I was getting into" (in my gut, I felt like I did, but wasn't totally sure). After some back and forth we finally came to a point where they offered ~$45 back, which was half of auction close, and I thought I could work with that number. I figured someone may want this project for $45 given it's not very banged up and looks salvageable (to me). If not, I could always part and possibly make $30-40ish bucks after shipping, which would get me within a few bucks of where I needed to be.

The seller claimed after we settled up that they really didn't have time to deal with negotiating because of medical issues; maybe it was legit, maybe not. Again, am I a sucker? Possible. Does the situation suck? Yes. Do I assume we've all been in this position at one point? Probably. Was there another way to handle it? I dunno, I'm not 100% versed in how to really stick it to someone with eBay so I'll be honest: I don't know which rights I could've exercised or what to expect. I wasn't aware eBay would force the seller to pay for return shipping.

I assumed I'd be out $30 on the return if I went to eBay with the claim and I'd have nothing to show for it, so I figured at least having the F&F and $45 in-hand gave me the potential to break even. I hoped someone else may want this as a project, it still seems like a decent Reynolds frame. The seller had respectable positive feedback and no clear history of scamming people or I'd have behaved very differently. I've read the lengthy threads on BF C&V about legit members I've bought/sold with here who have been totally screwed through 'not as described' claims and that weighed heavy on my mind the whole time, I don't want to be that person.

So, long story short, here you have me trying to offload a frame and fork with complete Stronglight BB and HS for $45 because I got shafted and hope to (but don't expect to) break even on it.

If you need to do any fact-checking feel free to check out item 252395939024 and you'll see I'm offering up full disclosure here. I can post screencaps of the back-and-forth with the seller if it compels anyone. In the auction you see the slightly opened DO slot is clear... The rest of the follow-up pics from the seller are in my eBay messages UI which the public can't see readily, so I realize there's an entire behind-the-scenes here not privy to everyone.

As much as I realize posting this will make me look like an ass or a full-on sucker, I'd rather fully disclose it to a potential buyer than not. If the eBay seller in this case was actually scamming me, I'd rather not to do the same to whoever potentially may buy this, so... There you have it.

zazenzach 06-21-16 08:48 AM

Sorry to hear this happened to you franc. It really sounds like the seller was hoping to pull one over on an unsuspecting buyer (especially with the all too familiar medical/family issues excuses). Too bad the ebay case was opened and closed already.

Best of luck. Check out your local bike coops, I know mine would let me trade that frame in for bike parts of equal value. I'd also give craigslist a shot if you haven't already. That would sell for $45 in my neck of the woods but ymmv.

francophile 06-21-16 10:26 AM

Thanks for the kind words. Call me naive, I'm still not 100% convinced they were trying to hoodwink someone. I can see it both ways, but I'd prefer to keep my faith in humanity and believe it was a mistake of ignorance. Either way, pretty sure I can break-even.

Our local coop just moved buildings and was in quite a bit of disarray when I was in a few weeks ago, they're still trying to iron out space for their boneyard and figure out workstations if I understood correctly. Now is probably not a good time to come in with a frameset for trade/donation. They may just strip it down and recycle because of the rear DO slot spread.

If I don't see any action this week, I'll strip it down to parts and offer up the bare frame and fork for $20 on local CL next month.

3speedslow 06-21-16 10:46 AM

@francophile I know you to be a good and honest seller from not one but two frame purchases with you. Don't sweat you character creeds, you're gold and you pack a mean frame box too !

Good luck with the Pug. Too large for me. Both issues are easy repairs to a builder.

mountaindave 06-21-16 07:54 PM

When a seller responds in a less than professional manner as they did in this situation, it triggers warning bells for me. Whether he/she was actually trying to scam you or not, the seller does not deserve even a 99.8% rating.

You did what you felt comfortable with and can live with. You knew the options. What's to feel bad about? Don't feel guilty for not being a dork.

francophile 06-21-16 09:01 PM

Thanks, guys.

Not really sure I knew every option in this case (again, hindsight is 20/20) and I'm not sure what an "unprofessional manner" is on eBay, but I know I've seen bigger a-holes than this person, who was actually pretty easy to deal with overall.

Again, putting myself in their shoes, he being a seller that doesn't move bikes as his primary, he damn well may've thought he was in the right, and the price was fair for the condition. After the resolution, I basically paid a small premium to have the frame shipped USPS Priority, and at the end of the day, I'm seriously thinking about doing the same here.

Going to sleep on it overnight, maybe two nights. Seriously thinking about popping off the BB and HS and giving the F&F away to another BF'er for the cost of shipping. Keep your eyes peeled if that sounds interesting to you...

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