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Campy front/rear derailleur question

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Campy front/rear derailleur question

Old 04-23-15, 03:32 PM
  #1  
jeff44
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Campy front/rear derailleur question

My 1975 bike has a Super Record (52/42) front and a Nuovo Record (12-26) rear. I want a wider range wonder how a Record triple (52/41/36) with a Rally rear would work? Can you think of any reasons where I would have issues?

I found a pre-'73 Raleigh International on CL that had a Victory triple and the Rally rear. I would like to keep the 1975 bike close to period correct as possible, thus the Record triple versus the Victory. I assume I can use the Victory triple BB with the Record triple?

I am thinking of taking the bike on the Bon Ton Roulet tour around the Finger Lakes in NY in July which means many hills over the 7 days.

Thanks, Jeff
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Old 04-23-15, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jeff44 View Post
My 1975 bike has a Super Record (52/42) front and a Nuovo Record (12-26) rear. I want a wider range wonder how a Record triple (52/41/36) with a Rally rear would work? Can you think of any reasons where I would have issues?
I suspect it will be fine. I have a Rally on my tandem, with 50-45-28 chainrings and it works fine.
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Old 04-23-15, 04:23 PM
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That seems to be a lot of trouble to go to for not much gain. Going with a 36T inner and a 26T rear cog only gets you a 37.4 inch low gear. Keeping your 52-42 and switching your rear cluster to a 13-28 (I don't think 12T freewheels are available any more) gets you a 40.5 inch low (i.e. not much different) that can easily be handled by your existing derailleurs if you are careful with chain length (to ensure that the upper jockey wheel doesn't bounce along the 28T cog). Also note that your proposed triple setup only has a 30T chainwrap capacity, which is only 2 teeth greater than the Nuovo Record's official 28T chainwrap. This suggests that you might even be able to make that triple work with your existing derailleurs. If not, you could just buy the Soma cage which is a copy of the Rally cage and will fit right on the NR derailleur.

If you are going to all the trouble to switch to a triple, I'd suggest getting one of Red Clover's triplizers or have Bob Freeman (bobbiker) tap your double crankset so that you can run smaller than 36T inner chainrings. The 36T gives you so little extra bottom end that it is just not worth all the trouble IMHO.

Another note, at some point Campy switched from JIS to ISO taper bottom brackets (check the Phil Wood web site for info on this). That would change the spindle length needed. I also imagine that the Victory vs Record cranks may have different chainline requirements as far as BB spindle length is concerned, as Bianchigirl mentioned.

Last edited by davester; 04-23-15 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 04-23-15, 11:33 PM
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The Record triple with the Rally RD will work just fine. You could also have the Record crank tapped for 74mm bcd chainrings, which lets you go down to 24t on the small ring. I have a '74 International with an Ofmega 28-42-52 triple, a long-cage Nuovo Record derailleur, and a Shimano 14-28 ramped freewheel. It works pretty well and lets me handle pretty much any climb. I just posted it the last page of the Classic rigs and rides thread if you want to see a photo. The tapping plus the triple hardware looks the best but gets expensive, and I think the triplizer middle ring is probably cheaper.


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Old 04-23-15, 11:51 PM
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I vote on tossing on a Soma long cage and taller geared freewheel. You can also support a local member Jon Vara who owns Red Clover Components and get one of his triplizer rings and pick up a Record crankset. Getting a Record arm drilled isn't so much the issue but finding the hardware is the harder and pricier part.
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Old 04-24-15, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by davester View Post
That seems to be a lot of trouble to go to for not much gain. Going with a 36T inner and a 26T rear cog only gets you a 37.4 inch low gear. Keeping your 52-42 and switching your rear cluster to a 13-28 (I don't think 12T freewheels are available any more) gets you a 40.5 inch low (i.e. not much different) that can easily be handled by your existing derailleurs if you are careful with chain length (to ensure that the upper jockey wheel doesn't bounce along the 28T cog). Also note that your proposed triple setup only has a 30T chainwrap capacity, which is only 2 teeth greater than the Nuovo Record's official 28T chainwrap. This suggests that you might even be able to make that triple work with your existing derailleurs. If not, you could just buy the Soma cage which is a copy of the Rally cage and will fit right on the NR derailleur.

If you are going to all the trouble to switch to a triple, I'd suggest getting one of Red Clover's triplizers or have Bob Freeman (bobbiker) tap your double crankset so that you can run smaller than 36T inner chainrings. The 36T gives you so little extra bottom end that it is just not worth all the trouble IMHO.
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Old 04-24-15, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by davester View Post
That seems to be a lot of trouble to go to for not much gain. Going with a 36T inner and a 26T rear cog only gets you a 37.4 inch low gear. Keeping your 52-42 and switching your rear cluster to a 13-28 (I don't think 12T freewheels are available any more) gets you a 40.5 inch low (i.e. not much different) that can easily be handled by your existing derailleurs if you are careful with chain length (to ensure that the upper jockey wheel doesn't bounce along the 28T cog). Also note that your proposed triple setup only has a 30T chainwrap capacity, which is only 2 teeth greater than the Nuovo Record's official 28T chainwrap. This suggests that you might even be able to make that triple work with your existing derailleurs. If not, you could just buy the Soma cage which is a copy of the Rally cage and will fit right on the NR derailleur.

If you are going to all the trouble to switch to a triple, I'd suggest getting one of Red Clover's triplizers or have Bob Freeman (bobbiker) tap your double crankset so that you can run smaller than 36T inner chainrings. The 36T gives you so little extra bottom end that it is just not worth all the trouble IMHO.

Another note, at some point Campy switched from JIS to ISO taper bottom brackets (check the Phil Wood web site for info on this). That would change the spindle length needed. I also imagine that the Victory vs Record cranks may have different chainline requirements as far as BB spindle length is concerned, as Bianchigirl mentioned.
Re your other note, I don't think Campy ever used JIS taper. I think they always used their own taper until ISO came out looking very much like their own taper. But yes, it is said that JIS versus Campy/ISO can result in a different length needed. In my measurements the differences were very small, but I care about conserving my vintage Campy parts so I don't install them with mismatches. Regarding the Phil site, they like many others have a product to sell, and don't necessarily care about the proper fit of your vintage crankset. I would not trust them if they say Campy used JIS. Especially not on NR/SR crank arms of the vintage days.
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Old 04-24-15, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Re your other note, I don't think Campy ever used JIS taper. I think they always used their own taper until ISO came out looking very much like their own taper. But yes, it is said that JIS versus Campy/ISO can result in a different length needed. In my measurements the differences were very small, but I care about conserving my vintage Campy parts so I don't install them with mismatches. Regarding the Phil site, they like many others have a product to sell, and don't necessarily care about the proper fit of your vintage crankset. I would not trust them if they say Campy used JIS. Especially not on NR/SR crank arms of the vintage days.
Phil long ago had a very accurate chart of what spindle taper and length of BB to buy from them for various crank options.
This information vanished, perhaps when they decided the inventory numbers to sales volume no longer was worth it.
Someone will run across that sheet while clearing out an old bike shop..
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Old 04-25-15, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Re your other note, I don't think Campy ever used JIS taper. I think they always used their own taper until ISO came out looking very much like their own taper. But yes, it is said that JIS versus Campy/ISO can result in a different length needed. In my measurements the differences were very small, but I care about conserving my vintage Campy parts so I don't install them with mismatches. Regarding the Phil site, they like many others have a product to sell, and don't necessarily care about the proper fit of your vintage crankset. I would not trust them if they say Campy used JIS. Especially not on NR/SR crank arms of the vintage days.
In my exprerience diffences between JIS and old campy standard are negligible; I have GS (82) cranks on a JIS spindle (for a triple conversion) and the fit is perfect.
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Old 04-25-15, 08:46 AM
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Here's the info that's posted on the Phil Wood site:
In brief, most modern cranks will take the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) taper, in addition to Campagnolo cranks produced before 1994. After 1994, Campagnolo moved to the ISO (a.k.a. Campy) taper. The less common of the three tapers offered is the JIS low profile, which is used in some specific older-model Dura Ace cranks.


Compass Bicycles has this to say:
TaperNow we know which threading and which spindle length we need. There is one more thing to consider: the taper of the spindle ends determines which crank fits onto your bottom bracket. There are two common tapers:
  • JIS: The old French standard, copied by the Japanese. Most Japanese cranks (but not all) and most older French cranks use this taper. René Herse cranks (new and old) use this taper.
  • ISO: Campagnolo and many European makers, as well as a few high-end Japanese cranks, use this standard.
ISO and JIS are very similar – the angle of the taper is the same, but the ISO spindle ends are a little slimmer. In a pinch, you sometimes can use a JIS spindle with an ISO crank. To compensate for the wider JIS taper, select a spindle that is about 1-2 mm shorter. The other way around doesn’t always work: A slim ISO taper can extend all the way through the larger hole of a JIS crank, so you cannot tighten the crank.
and they have a nice chart here: https://www.compasscycle.com/images/skf_bb_chart.pdf
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Old 04-25-15, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jeff44 View Post
My 1975 bike has a Super Record (52/42) front and a Nuovo Record (12-26) rear. I want a wider range wonder how a Record triple (52/41/36) with a Rally rear would work? ...
With that 12-26 freewheel, consider a 46-36 compact double, which your current rear derailleur, and perhaps the front, could handle with aplomb.
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