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Looking for a lugged, quilled touring frame. Which models to search?

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Looking for a lugged, quilled touring frame. Which models to search?

Old 05-18-15, 04:30 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by chapel View Post
all I want in life...

Splatter paint was my favorite thing ever.
A trip down memory lane Kuwahara Pacer | Cycles Bespoke
I search for Kuwahara Pacers frequently. they just don't exist.

They also have a boring unicrown
That has got to be the best looking spatter ever - was some Japanese painter channeling Jackson Pollack?
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Old 05-18-15, 04:38 PM
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For more possibilities, see post #16 in this thread.
[for myself, I finally settled on a Ross Gran Touring, that I practically stole from Ebay. It evidently commands a much lower price than many of the Japanese and American icons, but it was an ideal working bike, frameset-wise, for my commuting application. I upgraded the most of the componentry to my specific needs/tastes; i.e. everything but the frame/fork, bottom bracket, headset,and stem. The wheels were actually very nice 700C Rigida 1320s, but I hijacked them for my Moto GJ, in favor of a wider, more commuting oriented Weinmann wheelset, freehub equipped at that, from my stash.]
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Old 05-18-15, 05:14 PM
  #28  
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Are there any vintage touring or hybrids that can handle a wide 700?
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Old 05-18-15, 05:57 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by jmeb View Post
Dig these brakes. However they won't work on a lot of older touring frames whose canti-posts are spaced closer together than modern designs. Measure distance between canti-posts on your frame and compare with modern specs before you try upgrading.
+1 on this. Had this experience twice. Most recently on an 1988 MB/2.
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Old 05-18-15, 06:01 PM
  #30  
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Asked and answered?

Originally Posted by chapel View Post
Are there any vintage touring or hybrids that can handle a wide 700?
Originally Posted by oddjob2 View Post
snip...many thumb their noses at steel Hybrids, the best of both worlds and cheap too. 700 X 38mm tires fit easily, fenders fit easily, and brakes are mostly cantilevered.
Many modern-ish tourers will take a 32 or 35 but I find the ride quality unsettling with lots of weight. My loaded tours were done on Continental Top Touring 28's, the bike was stable and I was happy. Fatter tires for lighter or all terrain riding is great but that undermines the whole point of building/buying any one of those nice touring bikes. BTW that 70's Centurion is a pretty rare bird and hawt!
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Old 05-18-15, 06:04 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by simmonsgc View Post
+1 on this. Had this experience twice. Most recently on an 1988 MB/2.
What exactly is the problem?
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Old 05-18-15, 06:13 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by chapel View Post
I'm currently on a 58cm Centurion and I think it's a little small. I would estimate a 60-62cm would be adequate.
I need to get my standover height figured out
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Old 05-18-15, 07:38 PM
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Univega Specialissimo and Gran Tourismo
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Old 05-18-15, 08:02 PM
  #34  
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I don't think the Lotus Eclair has been mentioned. I changed mine to 700c and have had trouble dialing in the brakes though. It is a really nice frame though.
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Old 05-18-15, 08:25 PM
  #35  
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If you can live without the canti brakes I have an 83 Schwinn Voyageur I'm ready to let go. 23 inch. All serviced with most of the consumables replaced, wheels re packed and trued, etc. I refer to it as a light tourer, since it only has one set of bosses and lacks the cantis. Has all the eyelets needed for both racks and fenders though. If interested let me know. I have family in CT so can even arrange a meet.
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Old 05-18-15, 08:35 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by chapel View Post
all I want in life..I search for Kuwahara Pacers frequently. they just don't exist. They also have a boring unicrown.
One sold recently; totally cool.

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Old 05-18-15, 08:39 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by chapel View Post
What exactly is the problem?
The problem is that given a standard width rim, modern cantilevers have zero clearance from the rims (i.e. they touch the brake track), because the cantilever posts on the fork are set closer than modern canti's were designed for. Sometimes you can get around this playing with washers/using thinline pads, but generally its a big PITA. Some cantis work (Shimano CT-91 Altus canti's for example) can be made to work, but you're usually best off with what was originally spec'd on the bike + modern pads. Add to this the problem that most older canti's cannot be suitably adjusted for the 27-to-700c conversion and you can be convinced just to go modern rather than deal with hard-to-adjust old canti's and 27" wheels. However, if you're fine with both 27" wheels (they make Pasela's still) and older cantis (they work, just not as easily) then vintage frames are typically better made out of nicer steel for cheaper prices.
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Old 05-18-15, 08:56 PM
  #38  
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83 grand tourismo is listed in the Craigslist thread...might be a 60. It's in NYC and 175. Could be the ticket.
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Old 05-19-15, 05:45 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by jmeb View Post
The problem is that given a standard width rim, modern cantilevers have zero clearance from the rims (i.e. they touch the brake track), because the cantilever posts on the fork are set closer than modern canti's were designed for. Sometimes you can get around this playing with washers/using thinline pads, but generally its a big PITA. Some cantis work (Shimano CT-91 Altus canti's for example) can be made to work, but you're usually best off with what was originally spec'd on the bike + modern pads. Add to this the problem that most older canti's cannot be suitably adjusted for the 27-to-700c conversion and you can be convinced just to go modern rather than deal with hard-to-adjust old canti's and 27" wheels. However, if you're fine with both 27" wheels (they make Pasela's still) and older cantis (they work, just not as easily) then vintage frames are typically better made out of nicer steel for cheaper prices.
I guess I'm slightly confused on this one. you're saying that the canti mounts are closer together on the fork and cause the brakes to touch the rims without pads on it?
I'd like to avoid 27s because I have a 700c set I plan on moving to the new frame.
I've built up my Centurion with all good components with the plan to move it all to a new frame
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Old 05-19-15, 05:46 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by fender1 View Post
yeah, that specifically I need to do.
There's a great 63cm Shogun 1500 frame for sale near me, but I don't know if it'll fit me. that might be too tall.
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Old 05-19-15, 06:13 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jmeb View Post
The problem is that given a standard width rim, modern cantilevers have zero clearance from the rims (i.e. they touch the brake track), because the cantilever posts on the fork are set closer than modern canti's were designed for. Sometimes you can get around this playing with washers/using thinline pads, but generally its a big PITA. Some cantis work (Shimano CT-91 Altus canti's for example) can be made to work, but you're usually best off with what was originally spec'd on the bike + modern pads. Add to this the problem that most older canti's cannot be suitably adjusted for the 27-to-700c conversion and you can be convinced just to go modern rather than deal with hard-to-adjust old canti's and 27" wheels. However, if you're fine with both 27" wheels (they make Pasela's still) and older cantis (they work, just not as easily) then vintage frames are typically better made out of nicer steel for cheaper prices.
Yep. I have two bikes with this problem. One is an '83 Trek 720. Those posts are very close together. I'm skeptical that I can get a modern cantilever to work right on it. The other is a '93 B'stone XO-2. There the posts are farther apart. I couldn't get tektro 720s to work on the bike but I bet I can find other cantis that would. I may have to try out the shimano altus cantilevers.
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Old 05-19-15, 06:16 AM
  #42  
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Bad pic, but I snagged this Univega Grand Touring fairly cheap. The name doesn't hold a whole lot of love outside enthusiasts, but cantis all the rack mounts, etc are there. I never ride it anymore to be honest. I love the bike, just I don't commute to work on it, and I haven't had a moment to take it for a tour in over a year.
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Old 05-19-15, 06:18 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
Yep. I have two bikes with this problem. One is an '83 Trek 720. Those posts are very close together. I'm skeptical that I can get a modern cantilever to work right on it. The other is a '93 B'stone XO-2. There the posts are farther apart. I couldn't get tektro 720s to work on the bike but I bet I can find other cantis that would. I may have to try out the shimano altus cantilevers.
Yeah, these dudes have it right ( @jmeb & @bikemig). That was my experience exactly. The ones I bought are in a parts drawer waiting for a more modern project. You can see a short discussion about it in @Bikedued's thread:

My MB-2/XO-3 wannabe is coming along...


but it's basically what is described here-- posts are so close, the pad hits the rim before any spring tension is achieved. I wound up snagging original-spec dia compe 986's for my project. Being able to set the preload with a cone wrench instead of relying on the spring holes on the boss is a plus.

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Old 05-19-15, 07:18 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by chapel View Post
I guess I'm slightly confused on this one. you're saying that the canti mounts are closer together on the fork and cause the brakes to touch the rims without pads on it?
I'd like to avoid 27s because I have a 700c set I plan on moving to the new frame.
I've built up my Centurion with all good components with the plan to move it all to a new frame
No, the canti mounts are closer together, so when you put a smaller diameter wheel in, the pads are angled more 'down' than 'parallel' to the rim when you engage the brake. That's why you need a brake that has the adjustability to angle the pad up so it hits the rim more parallel to the rim surface.

You'll see some 80s tourers fitted with 700c wheels with the pads angled goofy because not all brakes have the adjustability.
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Old 05-19-15, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
No, the canti mounts are closer together, so when you put a smaller diameter wheel in, the pads are angled more 'down' than 'parallel' to the rim when you engage the brake. That's why you need a brake that has the adjustability to angle the pad up so it hits the rim more parallel to the rim surface.

You'll see some 80s tourers fitted with 700c wheels with the pads angled goofy because not all brakes have the adjustability.
This is the problem if you convert to 700c. Even if you stick with 27" rims and try modern canti's they're unlikely to fit asyou'll have no space between your brake pads and the rims because newer cantis are designed to be mounted on posts that are a cm or so wider apart than most vintage touring frames.
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Old 05-19-15, 08:14 AM
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so most tourers will have 27s?
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Old 05-19-15, 08:17 AM
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Didn't see mentioned the Miyata Six Ten, Univega Specialissima or the Lotus Odyssey.
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Old 05-19-15, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by chapel View Post
so most tourers will have 27s?
Most made in US and some from Japan in 70's and 80's will.
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Old 05-19-15, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by chapel View Post
so most tourers will have 27s?
Most old tourers will have 27s.

The idea was that in the middle of nowhere, a hardware or drug store will carry some sort of 27" tube or tire. Now 700c is much more dominant-

By the time 700c became standard on tourers, post spacing had been more standardized. Even then, a lot of touring bikes were still using 27" wheels in 1990.
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Old 05-19-15, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jmeb View Post
This is the problem if you convert to 700c. Even if you stick with 27" rims and try modern canti's they're unlikely to fit asyou'll have no space between your brake pads and the rims because newer cantis are designed to be mounted on posts that are a cm or so wider apart than most vintage touring frames.
I didn't have that problem playing with the Tektro 720s on my 620. I don't recall the pads being too far back in the holders. Then again, I wasn't, and I'm not the best mechanic.
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