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Mixed lacing patterns on High Flange Record hubs

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Mixed lacing patterns on High Flange Record hubs

Old 05-21-15, 11:27 PM
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Mixed lacing patterns on High Flange Record hubs

So now that I have my cartridge bearing Record hub project finished and my rims arrived today. It's time to build these puppies up and see if the hassle was worth it. I was debating radial lacing the front and a radial/3x in the rear. These are 36 holes hubs and getting laced to some NOS Performance MT21 tubular rims. I can't say that I've ever seen a Record or any older hub for that matter with a mixed lacing pattern in the rear. Am I just asking for a trouble or is it just one of those "if it ain't broke why fix it" type of questions. Yes "3x" is alway that magic lacing pattern but most modern wheels use this pattern now so why not use it on older wheelsets? Is it because the flanges were never designed to handle that type of stress caused by radial lacing?

Yes I'm difficult and one of those "but why?" kids growing up. Inquiring minds want to know...well at least this one!
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Old 05-21-15, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Henry III
So now that I have my cartridge bearing Record hub project finished and my rims arrived today. It's time to build these puppies up and see if the hassle was worth it. I was debating radial lacing the front and a radial/3x in the rear. These are 36 holes hubs and getting laced to some NOS Performance MT21 tubular rims. I can't say that I've ever seen a Record or any older hub for that matter with a mixed lacing pattern in the rear. Am I just asking for a trouble or is it just one of those "if it ain't broke why fix it" type of questions. Yes "3x" is alway that magic lacing pattern but most modern wheels use this pattern now so why not use it on older wheelsets? Is it because the flanges were never designed to handle that type of stress caused by radial lacing?

Yes I'm difficult and one of those "but why?" kids growing up. Inquiring minds want to know...well at least this one!
I am not fond of radial in front just due to the limits of the material volume on the hub flange.
I have seen "crow's foot" lacing that was intriguing, but I never bothered enough to figure out the spoke lengths.
Guys who had that lacing felt it made a strong wheel, they were tied and soldiered at the three spoke juncture.

For the rear, 3x drive side and radial off drive side is a pattern I have done, I don't think it makes a better wheel, but at least the radial is on the lower tension side.
I thought it as a time trial set up.
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Old 05-21-15, 11:54 PM
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So for spoke length for the rear with this setup. I have to calculate it for a radial pattern and use the length for just the NDS? Then calculate for a 3x laced wheel and just use the drive side length?
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Old 05-22-15, 02:08 AM
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Personally I wouldn't use radial lacing (front or rear) on 30 year old hubs. The flanges weren't made to modern standards.

As far as NDS radial lacing on the rear, I would only consider it if I was trying non-uniform lacing on the wheel, for example, taking a 48h hub, and lacing 24 DS spokes and 12 NDS spokes for use on a 36h rim.
Or, perhaps 32h with 16 DS and 8 NDS on a 24h rim. (possibly slightly reorienting some of the holes in the rim.
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Old 05-22-15, 03:06 AM
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All that work modifying the hubs and then you're going to risk breaking the flange with radial spoking?
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Old 05-22-15, 03:58 AM
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3x on the back and radial on the front. No issues so far but the hubs are not all that old...

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Old 05-22-15, 04:41 AM
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Campy high flange hubs are in fact pretty famous for breaking when laced radially, especially the Record model. A well crafted google search will bring up lots of photos, including wheels that more or less disintegrated on hitting a bump. I did a crow's foot lacing with Nuovo Tipo hubs once, and that was pretty cool (12 radial spokes, 24 tangent; no tricky calculations). I sold those wheels before they had any problems.
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Old 05-22-15, 04:48 AM
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I've seen low flange Record hubs with cracked and broken flanges and then C-Record high flange but just never Record high flange with any issues. I'll stop being difficult and just lace them normally. Lol.
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Old 05-22-15, 05:44 AM
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Are the hubs NOS?

If they aren't, , I wouldn't deviate from their previous lacing pattern.
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Old 05-22-15, 07:30 AM
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I tried radial front lacing back in the early 1970s, before it was fashionable. All it got me was more frequent spoke breakage and a cracked high flange Shimano hub. Long ago I reverted to 3X on almost everything, except for a few 36-spoke high flange 4X wheels.

The 3X/radial pattern is like what Ford used on the Model A, and it seems reasonable, as long as the 3X is on the dished (drive) side. I have seen a few modern wheels with radial on the drive side and have yet to figure out the motivation in building them this way.
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Old 05-22-15, 09:33 AM
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For re-use hubs, I like to set up the spoking pattern so that the new spokes settle into the indentations in the flange left by the earlier spokes. This reuses the dents left by the old (easier on the new spokes and the eyes) and avoids making new dents (easier on the flanges). Sometimes it takes some planning to get the inner/outer and leading/following spokes in the correct holes in the hub, and the right/left offset holes in the rim, and still end up with the valve stem between groups and the labels facing the correct way. whew!

If you have any serious indentations left by the old spokes, they could make the flange all the more fragile when respoking radially.
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Old 05-22-15, 09:49 AM
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Crows foot. Go for it, you won't regret it.

Why? Why not!!!
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Old 05-22-15, 11:04 AM
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*Looks down and kicks away some dirt and sighs* ...I guess I'll just lace 'em three cross. lol.
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Old 05-22-15, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by iab
Are the hubs NOS?

If they aren't, , I wouldn't deviate from their previous lacing pattern.
I agree with this. I always follow the old patter with the exception of changing the in and out of the elbows if I want, don't have a problem with that. If I anything I could go with 2x on the front if you want to change it up a bit.
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Old 05-22-15, 11:48 AM
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Interesting concept and good luck. (BTW: Nice job on that bearing conversion.)

Most of those high flange aluminum hubs are quite narrow at the circumference. Not much meat there vs. low flange. Might have better luck with a radial lace on older low flange type but with prep work. That meaning to have chamfered holes.

Or, if stuck on using the high flange, perhaps consider a steel vs. aluminum type. Although for aluminum, Normandy's might be thicker than Campagnolo's. Then again, what period of bike are you working on and desired spacing / width.

Give it a try, what could go wrong?? LOL
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Old 05-22-15, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Henry III
*Looks down and kicks away some dirt and sighs* ...I guess I'll just lace 'em three cross. lol.
Awe, man don't give up!

Back when Durham's sealed bearing Bullseye hubs came to be, I radial laced a few fronts. Never had an issue. Then in or around 1990, had radial laced some crazy light wheels with sealed bearings. NukeProof titanium with aluminum flange. I even used bladed FiberFlite spokes - radial laced on the front! Rear was Marwi titanium spokes, radial on non-drive and 3X drive.
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Old 05-22-15, 12:44 PM
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I've ridden on radial-laced wheels and got away with it, but I've seen a few that actually pulled the flange apart while sitting in storage!

Such is the "plastic" characteristic of aluminum over time.

Radial lacing is dangerous not just because the flange can break, but what is most troublesome is that when a piece comes off of the flange, all of the affected same-side spokes are next to each other at the rim!

Result is that when a radial-laced hub fails, the wheel will stop turning, possibly causing a catastrophic accident of the worst sort.

Although far less likely to fail in the first place, the tangentially-laced hub flange that breaks typically causes slack in just two spokes at staggered locations along the rim, so likely that the rim will not be stopped from turning as it contacts the frame or fork.
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Old 05-22-15, 01:01 PM
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^^ I suppose the better scenario (if we dare to say) would have spoke breakage before the flange. The whole argument becomes about tensile strength, butted type / ga., quality of spoke etc..

Regarding my experiment build mentioned above, I had an incident with the insanely FiberFlite radial laced front. Actually, the most amazing thing about it was nothing of product(s) defect or catastrophic.

A passing rider nicked my front and it sheared a few spokes! Of course the CF spokes had sheared but nothing bent. 32 hole might have helped but it remained true. I simply unscrewed the broken pieces from the J-hooks and went on my way. Anyways, the carbon fiber spoke design was unlike any thinking vs. steel spokes. I recall really tensioning them up too, just for the 'hell of it'!

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Old 05-22-15, 01:07 PM
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Henry-
I like your thinking and while you did the sealed bearing conversion, should consider machining a thin stock steel circumference ring complete with spoke holes as a safe guard. Would have to be very thin allowing width for the spoke going through both safety ring and the flange.

(scribble art but hopefully get the idea)
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Old 05-22-15, 01:24 PM
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Naw like Johnny Thompson said...why risk these hubs I just finished converting. So I'll just lace them up normally and go on with my day.
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Old 05-22-15, 01:48 PM
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Not to try to change your mind, but I have a set of 1985 28h small flange Record hubs laced radial front w/bladed Hoshi spokes, and the rear IIRC is 3X/2X (not bladed). I did not build these, but I have ridden them, and all I've done is break one rear spoke at the nipple.
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Old 05-22-15, 01:56 PM
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I fail to see the appeal to radial lacing at all, in any kind of wheel.
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Old 05-22-15, 02:28 PM
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I like radial lacing as a change of pace. If everything were the same, life would be boring.
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Old 05-22-15, 02:57 PM
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Radial lacing has real benefits if the hub flange is designed for the added stress it imposes.

By crossing spokes, where they actually touch, the spoke is slightly bent into an arc. This arc somewhat straightens to either side of the spoke crossing, each half becoming yet straighter in response to intermittent or cyclic increases in tension imposed by loading on the rim while riding.

Thus a crossed spoke is more flexible, which goes against the design philosophy of high stiffness-to-weight wheel builds.

In the same way, straight-pull spokes are stiffer than J-bend spokes, so allow further reductions in spoke count while still supporting the rim against excessive bending out of plane.

Mavic's first(?) wheel system, the Helium, made use of both of these straighter-spoke techniques to build reliably stiff, yet lighter, wheels using their existing Maxtal Reflex rim extrusion.

Of course lower spoke counts will increase the cyclic loading on the rim holes, eyelets, spoke nipple and flange, but modern designs have accounted for this in these component's design.

In traditional wheelbuilding, if the hub is rated for radial lacing, then slightly lighter or fewer spokes can theoretically be used without compromising the stiffness out at the rim, as compared to a crossed-spoke build.

Lastly, a radial-laced wheel is much easier to build, though expectedly loses more of it's structure in the event of a single spoke breakage if/when the build uses fewer spokes.

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