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Solving my brake dilemma

Old 05-28-15, 01:15 PM
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smontanaro 
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Solving my brake dilemma

I have a Trek 520 I converted to fixed gear back in late 2014. At the time I tossed on a set of 700c wheels. I didn't do anything about the brakes. I was able to adjust the pads to strike the rims well enough. After last winter's nearly full-time commuting, the bike needed an overhaul, so I put it aside until I had time to work on it, using a different bike in the meantime. After the overhaul, which included new pads and disassembly of the brakes, sanding and greasing the canti posts, etc, the brakes are still underwhelming in their effectiveness. (The silver cloud, I suppose, is that I use my legs to do some of the braking and get a bit more exercise that way.)

I think the weakness stems from two things. One is the geometry of the cantilever brakes with the smaller diameter wheels. I am using the original Dia-Compe cantilever brakes which were on the bike when I bought it (and I assume were original to the bike). The other is the fact that I'm using aero routing from the levers and have the stem nearly slammed, so there isn't much room for the cable to make the bend to the front brake. Unfortunately, un-slamming the stem pretty much requires cutting new housing. Might as well just switch to non-aero routing. The effort required to squeeze the front brake is clearly higher than the rear.

I can solve the handlebar problem by swapping in a set of non-aero levers, but I'm not sure what to do about the brakes themselves. In theory, I can stick on some side-pull brakes (I have plenty sitting around). I eyeballed the front yesterda, and don't think they will interfere with the canti posts. The fork crown and brake bridge are both drilled, but only for fenders. The holes would have to be opened up to pass the 6mm brake center bolt. Before I do that, I thought I'd ask a couple questions.
  1. Is opening up the fork crown/brake bridge holes reasonably doable with a hand drill?
  2. Am I really correct in thinking a set of side pull or center pull calipers will clear the posts?
  3. Are there things I can do to improve the existing brakes' effectiveness?
  4. Are there some canti options which will work?
  5. If I switch to side/center pull brakes, what do I do with the canti posts? They will just rust if left exposed. I was thinking maybe protecting them with some shrink wrap tubing and inserting (loctited) screws to protect the threads.

Discuss. (And thank you...)
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Old 05-28-15, 01:41 PM
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I'd try different pads - probably KoolStop.
V-brakes would probably be much stronger but you would have to change the levers - can't use canti levers on v-brakes.
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Old 05-28-15, 01:44 PM
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Dumb question: do the canti's in question have an adjustable straddle cable length? There is an art to getting the right mechanical advantage without requiring too much cable pull: The Geometry of Cantilever Brakes

A hard, crisp feel to the brakes on a bicycle may be a sign that the brakes don't have much mechanical advantage. You squeeze them until the brake shoes hit the rim, then they stop. Brakes with a high mechanical advantage will feel "spongy" by comparison, because the large amount of force they deliver to the brake shoes will squash the shoes against the rim, deforming them temporarily under pressure.
A larger contribution to the mechanical advantage of a well-adjusted cantilever brake, especially a low-profile one, comes from the transverse cable. The mechanical advantage is strictly determined by the "yoke angle ".

Yoke Angle
(Degrees) Mechanical Advantage
90° 1
80° 1.015
70° 1.063
60° 1.15
50° 1.31
40° 1.55
30° 2
20° 2.92
10° 5.76
5° 11.47
0° Infinity!
A 90 degree yoke angle would result from an infinitely long transverse cable, such that each side of the cable was running vertically down from the cable yoke.
A 0 degree yoke angle would represent the shortest possible transverse cable, running in a perfect straight line along the top of the cable yoke.

As you can see from the table, the shorter and straighter the transverse cable, the more difference it makes. This effect is what makes it possible to make a low-profile brake with good stopping power.
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Old 05-28-15, 01:46 PM
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I'm using V-brakes on my commuter with Tektro levers made for linear pull. Stopping power is awesome, and modulation is pretty good. Plus, routing will likely work with your stem in that position as you won't be dealing with a cable stop any longer.
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Old 05-28-15, 01:49 PM
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1. Non-adjustable straddle cables. They have bumps on both ends. One end has a little extra appendage to grab onto.

2. When I first set up the bike I used Kool-Stops. I switched to Velo-Orange this time around because that's what my LBS had in stock. I didn't notice a difference.
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Old 05-28-15, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
I'm using V-brakes on my commuter ...
Surely that would require the posts to be moved?
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Old 05-28-15, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
Surely that would require the posts to be moved?
I don't believe so or at least my bike has standard canti posts for 700c wheels. More from Sheldon Brown: Adjusting Direct-pull Cantilever Bicycle Brakes ("V-Brakes ®")
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Old 05-28-15, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
1. Non-adjustable straddle cables. They have bumps on both ends. One end has a little extra appendage to grab onto.
Ahh, like these?



Perhaps you could substitute a shorter one (maybe your bike has the wrong one in front?)
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Old 05-28-15, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
1. Non-adjustable straddle cables. They have bumps on both ends. One end has a little extra appendage to grab onto.
I had the same straddle cables you're describing on the Dia Compe 980 cantis on my Miyata.

I got around it by using the long mountain bike straddle cables (nub at one end, open on the other), and using a barrel cable clamp.

Might require dremeling a bit of the brake arm so it sits pretty, but I've been running this cable cludge for a few years now without any ill consequences.
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Old 05-28-15, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
Surely that would require the posts to be moved?
My 1990 Cannondale touring bike (originally equipped w/cantis) came to me with v-brakes on it. Aesthetically displeasing but excellent stopping power. Iffy on modulation; they feel kinda grabby, compared to pretty much every other brake set I have. It's some variety of Shimano v-brake that has quite a bit of room to move the brake pads up and down, so they're good for both 27" and 700c. I'll take a pic that tells the story there if the OP wants to see it.
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Old 05-28-15, 06:36 PM
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I have a couple bikes with u-brakes. I measured them and my Trek. The other bikes have about 3.5cm between the posts and the middle of the rim. On my Trek, that distance is only about 2.2cm. I suspect if I still had 27-inch wheels on it, the measurement would be much closer. I'm not willing to go back to the larger wheels and forego fenders and wider tires, so it doesn't look like u-brakes are an option.
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Old 05-28-15, 06:41 PM
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Right, not the Shimano straddle cable, the Dia-Compe straddle cable.

Any idea how I would figure out the right cable length?
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Old 05-28-15, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
Right, not the Shimano straddle cable, the Dia-Compe straddle cable.

Any idea how I would figure out the right cable length?
I've used cantis with a yoke on the lever cable (like with centerpulls), and a piece of mtb brake cable for the straddle. That way you can adjust the straddle as much as you want, either to find the sweet spot for braking, or to get around rack mounts, etc.

The link at post #3 should also provide some guidance about ideal length.
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Old 05-28-15, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by due ruote View Post
The link at post #3 should also provide some guidance about ideal length.
Thanks. Reading that definitely gives me some food for thought. It looks like I can let the yoke down and increase the cantilever angle. I don't have a ton of room up front, but it should definitely help.
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Old 05-29-15, 06:28 PM
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Mini-V's or simply ride slower.
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Old 05-31-15, 11:34 AM
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Thanks for the help and the reference to Sir Sheldon's treatise on cantilever brakes. I adjusted the arms to lower the straddle cable yolk and thus increase the cantilever angle. I also swapped in a set of Campy NR levers (non-aero, so no tight bends). The brake action is much better.

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Old 10-05-15, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
I have a couple bikes with u-brakes. I measured them and my Trek. The other bikes have about 3.5cm between the posts and the middle of the rim. On my Trek, that distance is only about 2.2cm. I suspect if I still had 27-inch wheels on it, the measurement would be much closer. I'm not willing to go back to the larger wheels and forego fenders and wider tires, so it doesn't look like u-brakes are an option.
You confused V brakes with U brakes.

Different things.

U brakes (and roller cams) have the bosses higher up.

V brakes have the bosses in the same place as cantis. Even the best looking V brakes are lacking in aesthetics- but with linear pull levers, they'll stop better than most anything.
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Old 10-06-15, 02:43 AM
  #18  
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As far as leverage is concerned, you actually have note leverage with the slightly smaller wheel. That says nothing about mechanical advantage, but Scott has that pretty well covered already.
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Old 10-06-15, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
You confused V brakes with U brakes.

Different things.

U brakes (and roller cams) have the bosses higher up.

V brakes have the bosses in the same place as cantis. Even the best looking V brakes are lacking in aesthetics- but with linear pull levers, they'll stop better than most anything.
Sorry, I guess I don't know what a U brake is. Can you give me an example?

As for stopping, I have a set of what I thought were U brakes, but I guess are V brakes, on a-never-gonna-be-c&v Giant. They stop it like a Porsche, but modulation? Eh, not so much. When I ride it, I do so half expecting an eventual endo. I will admit that I dumped the broken integrated index/brake pod thing (not brifters, this is a flat bar bike) and replaced them with some cheap Tektro levers and (even cheaper) Sunrace friction shifters (not likely to buy them again). Maybe the levers have too much pull.

At any rate, whatever U brakes are, my Dia-Compe 960 cantilever brakes work just fine on my Trek. I will hold them up as an existence proof that, when properly setup, they do the job, even with a 700c wheel. I suppose there might be a little variation in the placement of the posts, but honestly, Trek would have used a jig to place them, right? They were looking for all sorts of little ways to speed up production. I can't imagine there would be more than a very small fraction of an inch difference in the distance from the fork end to the post from one fork to the next. The larger variation which would affect the attack angle of the pad on the rim is likely the width of the rim itself. Given that most people these days do 27"/700c or 700c/650b conversions to use wider tires (at least in part), I doubt many conversions are using very narrow rims.
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Old 10-06-15, 07:09 AM
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The U-Brake looks kind of like a centerpull- You'll often see them mounted under the chainstays of mountain bikes made in 1987 and 1988. (the idea was the chainstays wouldn't flex with heavy braking- but the brake filled up with mud) I don't think I've ever seen one mounted on the front of a bike.









Again, the post location is shared between U-brakes and V-brakes- and like U-brakes are often seen under the chainstays of 1987/88 mountain bikes. They do look really tough on the front end of bikes. Especially black chrome mountain bikes with lugged unicrown forks:









The big problem with roller cams (and I assume U-brakes) is that as the pads wear, the arms arc inward and up. Which means as the pad wears, it'll start wearing into the sidewall of the tire- which happened to the back end of my High Sierra- I had a nice groove in the tire- probably one ride away from a nifty explosion.

The biggest issue with V-brakes is they need a lever that's specifically for them- to pull the proper amount of cable- so it's not just like getting a pretty set of road levers and mating them to a pretty set of cantis. I think the prettiest V-brakes are the old XTR V-brake. Actually, I probably don't even think they're pretty- they're just "XTR." I don't know of a 'road bike' lever that's made for V-brakes- but they make 'em.









I totally agree with you about the DiaCompe 960. I think they're nice looking brakes and the work really well.
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Old 10-06-15, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
The other is the fact that I'm using aero routing from the levers and have the stem nearly slammed, so there isn't much room for the cable to make the bend to the front brake. Unfortunately, un-slamming the stem pretty much requires cutting new housing. Might as well just switch to non-aero routing. The effort required to squeeze the front brake is clearly higher than the rear.
I don't know if you solved this part, but if you use a flexible noodle in place of some of the housing it would help reduce the friction in the cable.



Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
The U-Brake looks kind of like a centerpull- You'll often see them mounted under the chainstays of mountain bikes made in 1987 and 1988. (the idea was the chainstays wouldn't flex with heavy braking- but the brake filled up with mud) I don't think I've ever seen one mounted on the front of a bike.
They were...

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Old 10-06-15, 09:42 AM
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Moving to a smaller wheel diameter (like 27" to 700c) with cantilever or V brakes should increase braking effectiveness for a given amount of pull at the levers (all other things being equal). Brakes where the pivot is above the rim (road caliper or centre pull, U brakes) will decrease in effectiveness when pads are moved down.
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Old 10-06-15, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Choke View Post


They were...


I know that bike- the famous "all Euclid" bike.

Way, way cool bike.
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