frame(s) question
 

i was going to paste this link:

Bici da corsa in acciaio Campagnolo vintage eroica steel bike | eBay

and ask opinions on the frame, but i'm realizing there is very little to go on. so my question is: what, in general, does one look for in frame construction, beyond the material(s)? i've seen a lot of comments that mention stuff such as "butted, double butted", etc. i don't expect a detailed response because i'm sure most of the experts around here have explained this stuff (though i couldn't find what i was looking for on the forum i'm sure it's here), but maybe a link or something or some general thoughts.

the components attached to the frame seem really nice. is the general experience that nice components wouldn't be attached to a poor frame?

thanks in advance for any help. i've started poking around this forum because it's time for me to buy a new bike for the first time in 15 years, and now i feel like i'm in pretty deep and want to know a lot about what i'm buying and riding.

Looks good to me from the 60's I think based on the rear dropout and cranks.
44t wil be the smallest ring you can fit to that crank arm.
Pedals may be Campagnolo.
No idea on the make but that is why it is at the price point it is currently.
Buy it.

Unless of course by showing it here you now have competition...

Things to look for and that are present on the purple bike you are looking at. It has Campy dropouts, and they are the old style, 1970's. Hard to see but the way the stay and fork ends are finished is different from bike to bike. It has a chrome fork crown and it looks like a nice one. Curve of the fork. Italians seem to get a graceful curve. Clearance at the seat stay bridge and fork. On the bike i question it looks like larger clearance as what you would find on a 70's bike. Hard to see the lugs. Seat cluster and how that is finished.

That's the stuff I look at.

The bike you linked to is a real nice looking bike and well equipped.

Moved form Appraisals to Classic and Vintage.

pic assist.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNj...VK79k/$_57.JPG

I stated 60's due to the Sport derailleur spring hole in the drive side dropout.
The 151 mm BCD crank also points to the 60's.
It might have a top tube surprise, an abandoned rerouting of a possible internal brake cable routing to three brazed on guides

is it a respray? looks like a nice frame, nice lugs, front geometry looks tight,chrome forged dropouts, sewup wheels, merckx drop bars. I'd want to know whats under the paint, if it's been resprayed.

I'm thinking more like early-mid 80s because of a couple of features -

One: The brazed-on toptube guides. Most 70s bike used chrome (or plastic) bands to hold the rear brake cable.

Two: The shifter bosses. They were clamped-on in the 70s. Brazed-on downtube shifter bosses came about later....

Three: Water bottle boss. Again, no braze-ons even on mid-70s bikes.

Look at my '75 Fuji S-10S

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/u...psa71ecfa4.jpg

No braze-on cable guides, shifter bosses, or water-bottle bosses.

And notice the 'graceful curve' of my 70s Japanese bike fork...

However, by the mid-late '80s, Aero brake levers were becoming more common.


Soooooo..... My guess is more of a late 70s / early 80s frame.




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A suggestion: Read through the C & V forums to get an idea what is being presented, appraised, for sale, etc. This should give you some information about the quality and features of the various bikes and their components.

By-the-way, are you Italian? It was strange seeing a link to the Italian E-Bay.

Doesn't "acciaio" mean refinished??......

If it's been repainted, anything could have been added at any time.

Assuming the drops at least are original I doubt it is newer than mid 70's.

PS brazed on shifter bosses & top tube stops were available in the 60's.

If the bike is a respray (and the lack of any decals is consistent with this), those braze-ons could have been added before the respray. The "Sport" type dropouts and lug style suggest a much earlier build date for the frame itself.

No, "acciaio" means "steel."

"Acciaio" translates to "steel"...

It does have something going on under the top tube at the front. Nice 60s look to the lugs and a nice detail at the fork crown.

I feel pretty confident that the bike has been repainted.
As you and others state, any braze-ons are suspect.
I think that is no problem.
The geometry looks correct fork and frame, the treatment of the stay ends vs the fork is handled differently, true.
For $300. Or there a outs for what I see, if I was in Italy, I would buy it.
I like the look of the lugs very much.
Probably had a head badge, good luck figuring that out, the lug and fork crown do not bring any makes to mind.
The frame fittings do suggest a frame of a decent standard, I would not be worried about the frame tubes.
Only curiosity would be that I see the hint of something along the underside of the top tube 3 -4 cm behind the head tube.
Not a dent, but possibly an abandonded cable exit.
Only one image holds the bike back. Too much cost to bring it over to the USA.
The milled chainring with the P in the pantographing is interesting, pretty early for that with 151 BCD bolt pattern... Could always be done later.
Be nice to know if the rear dérailleur is a Gran Sport or Record, but no big issue. Skewers are later, Shimano probably. No comment on the hubs. If they were Gran Sport that really would throw a wrench into the guesses, but the value looks there.

So how can you spot a 151 bcd record crank? Is there something specific that sets it apart?

What do we have here? We have...
A "no-name" steel frame with very clean lug work, seat cluster and Campy rear dropouts. Long reach brake in rear, shorter reach in front is consistent with late '60's - early '70's geometry - or a fork replacement.
I think the irregularity under the top tube is a filed-off number tab - it's pretty far back for crash damage. Definite repaint, braze-ons added later since geometry is early. Hope they didn't overheat the tubes...
The crank might be 151 BCD, I see no sure sign of that. Many other Campy parts, hubs are Miche (lin), rims Nisi tubulars, not a strong point.
Worth close to what he's asking but shipping to US shoots that down. Shame.

Yes, if you have one at home of each for reference it is quite clear.
The distance from the end of the visible spider arm to the inside tangent of the chainring bolt, the difference between the two is
151-144=7 divide by two, 3.5 mm or just over 1/8" farther In or out depending on where you want to start from.
Much more "Meat" between the chainring bolt and the visible part of the spider arm of the crank.

I really think this bike is a potential gem.
Unnamed, but the lugs are cool.

Maybe the reason the original poster has not bought it is because he is selling it... Similar things have happened.

In the 40's and 50's (even seen one pre war bike) the rear brake cable would from time to time be routed through the top tube, placements of the racetrack shaped reinforcements at the entry and exit used would be often on the side from 30 degrees above or below the horizon line of the tube. That is what I think may be visible near the head tube along the top tube. A hunch. This is where One image only is of no help at all.

I publish MY "TEN SPEEDS" just for people like the OP, new to the vintage bicycle interest and seeking a fast track to learning. With the OP's question in mind, I offer Vintage Bicycle Quality, an article focusing on what to look for when trying to determine a bicycle's quality level.

Hope it is a help.

I recommend Randy's link above all the time to new people looking for vintage bikes. It's very helpful.

I agree that this bike could be a gem. The braze ons might be original and might have been added. It wouldn't matter either way to me.

Hey all. Thanks for all of the helpful info.

The link provided is exactly what I wa looking for...incredibly helpful! I'm looking forward to asking better questions after digesting that site.

To the person who asked if that was my bike: I promise it's not.

I live in NYC, and it seems like everything here is marked up 50% as compared to everywhere else, so I think I have to take a chance and order something online, though I wish I could test ride. I'm looking for a bike to ride and love, not something to flip for a profit or anything. That said, I'm pretty sure once I know a good deal when I see it, I see myself starting to grab every bike I see.

Obviously shipping is going to be expensive from Europe, but I think I can get the seller down to $275 USD for the bike. I might just go for it.

The paint job is kind of terrible, but bikes get stolen all of the time here, so it might be a nice deterrent. On a similar note, I've looked at three bikes I saw on CL, and I'd venture to guess that two of the three were stolen. As people who buy used items, do you all feel like this is something that comes up often? Maybe a different thread for a different day.

Thanks again to everyone.

Last bike I had shipped from Italy was $160. for shipping.
In that case, the total price paid was still acceptable, but was at market value in the end.

You can get good deals in NYC, but you have to be patient and you have to check Craigslist a lot. I've bought several very nice bikes or frames at good prices. For reference, here's a couple bikes I have picked up and what I paid for them. They all needed some love, but were good bikes:

1974 Raleigh Gran Sport: $200
1979 Raleigh Competition: $175
1979 Raleigh Professional: $100
Early 80's Peugeot Pn??: $200
Early 80's Soma competition (frame, fork & headset): $25
Late 70's Austro Daimler (frame, fork, headset): $60
and lots more.

Keep in mind that here you will need to invest in a good lock if you plan on locking your bike up at all. Minimum is a orange-level Kryptonite lock with an additional cable. Yellow level is better. Best is a big chain with a small u-lock from either the orange or yellow levels. I also replace quick release skewers with ones that need special tools, and I find some way to attach the saddle to the bike. Never ever leave a bike out anywhere overnight.