How can you tell good steel frame-building from bad?
07-23-15, 10:57 AM
#27
Decrepit Member
Precisely why I will stick with my Kvales at this point.
He builds a sweet riding frameset that just happens to look fantastic. imho
FWIW The Twin Cities are loaded with custom builders that check all of these boxes for me. Makes little sense to go elsewhere when there is so much local talent.
He builds a sweet riding frameset that just happens to look fantastic. imho
FWIW The Twin Cities are loaded with custom builders that check all of these boxes for me. Makes little sense to go elsewhere when there is so much local talent.
07-23-15, 11:06 AM
#28
Decrepit Member
I agree with most of what's already been said, so won't "pile on" except to say that I was at a local show some years back where Bernie Mikkelsen (Alameda-based framebuilder/fitter/fixer) had a slew of lug joints that were cut-through so you could see all the "dirty secrets" that paint and rosy glasses can hide.
He did this, we assume, using crashed frames that were headed to the scrap heap anyway, and he had examples from MANY of the major brands you could name and they had the original paint, decals, lug piercings and panto on the exteriors so you could see at a glance whose work they were.
THAT was a real eye-opener!
Which is what Bernie intended since he'd show a customer who might be gushing over the wonderful (fill-in-blank, oh say Colnago, for example) that he wanted Bernie to build him a frame as wonderful as. Bernie could show him "Ernesto's pride" cut open to show horrific craps-manship, then an identical specimen that Bernie had brazed and let the evidence speak for itself. I'm sure that clinched many custom frame orders. I wonder if he'll ever post all that stuff online someday...but maybe the Italians would send somebody to "visit" if he did
joking, people, joking...
BUT, fantastic craftsmanship in and of itself does not a great RIDING bicycle make...it CAN sometimes justify the PRICE paid, however.
He did this, we assume, using crashed frames that were headed to the scrap heap anyway, and he had examples from MANY of the major brands you could name and they had the original paint, decals, lug piercings and panto on the exteriors so you could see at a glance whose work they were.
THAT was a real eye-opener!
Which is what Bernie intended since he'd show a customer who might be gushing over the wonderful (fill-in-blank, oh say Colnago, for example) that he wanted Bernie to build him a frame as wonderful as. Bernie could show him "Ernesto's pride" cut open to show horrific craps-manship, then an identical specimen that Bernie had brazed and let the evidence speak for itself. I'm sure that clinched many custom frame orders. I wonder if he'll ever post all that stuff online someday...but maybe the Italians would send somebody to "visit" if he did
joking, people, joking...BUT, fantastic craftsmanship in and of itself does not a great RIDING bicycle make...it CAN sometimes justify the PRICE paid, however.
07-23-15, 11:13 AM
#29
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We live in a time that has more custom builders than ever. "Buy Local" applies to food and custom frames. Having a relationship with the builder is probably more important than buying from the few nationally known builders.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
07-23-15, 11:52 AM
#30
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So true! I am a huge Dave Anderson fan.
[IMG]
DSCN5912 by gomango1849, on Flickr[/IMG]
Last edited by gomango; 07-23-15 at 11:57 AM.
07-23-15, 12:22 PM
#31
Senior Member
The only bike shown above that I think you can visually verify its build quality is Scooper's Waterford.
No Paint. If it was overheated it is a son of a B to remove the burned evidence.
Paint can hide a multitude of sins.
One can look inside the bottom bracket shell on a painted bike and get some sense as to how its built, but any strategic frame builder knows folk often look there.
To KNOW it needs to be bare and that is not full proof.
Beyond that its reputation. Hard earned, but easily fudged.
Note that SOUND construction does not necessarily equal a fussed with finish metalwork.
Best example of this are numerous French bikes, Files? Surely you are joking.
Extra brass, but having taken a few apart post crash, the bare frame often showed no overheating, the torch man got in, flowed the brass (often overflowed) complete penetration and got out.
Strong, short duration probably of heat most likely (think production environment), on to the next.
I will take that over a guy who takes 25 minutes to braze one lug, overworks it to get a pretty fill of braze, cooks the flux while he is at it.
Bike design is a separate issue to me.
No Paint. If it was overheated it is a son of a B to remove the burned evidence.
Paint can hide a multitude of sins.
One can look inside the bottom bracket shell on a painted bike and get some sense as to how its built, but any strategic frame builder knows folk often look there.
To KNOW it needs to be bare and that is not full proof.
Beyond that its reputation. Hard earned, but easily fudged.
Note that SOUND construction does not necessarily equal a fussed with finish metalwork.
Best example of this are numerous French bikes, Files? Surely you are joking.
Extra brass, but having taken a few apart post crash, the bare frame often showed no overheating, the torch man got in, flowed the brass (often overflowed) complete penetration and got out.
Strong, short duration probably of heat most likely (think production environment), on to the next.
I will take that over a guy who takes 25 minutes to braze one lug, overworks it to get a pretty fill of braze, cooks the flux while he is at it.
Bike design is a separate issue to me.
This^^
07-23-15, 12:51 PM
#32
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I offer three examples of stay to drop out approach:
1. Bottecchia 1973 vintage, Giro D'italia - top of the line frame, second in the line up:
[IMG]
P1020409 on Flickr[/IMG]
2. Colnago Superissimo 1983 vintage:
[IMG]
P7070959, on Flickr[/IMG]
3. Pinarello Montello 1991 vintage:
[IMG]
P1020171, on Flickr[/IMG]
I know the last two frames ring like a brass bell when thumped.
1. Bottecchia 1973 vintage, Giro D'italia - top of the line frame, second in the line up:
[IMG]
P1020409 on Flickr[/IMG]2. Colnago Superissimo 1983 vintage:
[IMG]
P7070959, on Flickr[/IMG]3. Pinarello Montello 1991 vintage:
[IMG]
P1020171, on Flickr[/IMG]I know the last two frames ring like a brass bell when thumped.
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Last edited by SJX426; 07-23-15 at 01:01 PM.
07-23-15, 01:23 PM
#33
Senior Member
I am saving for an Anderson 4 seasons in stainless. Performance art for a lifetime.
07-23-15, 01:42 PM
#34
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https://www.thevanillaworkshop.com/vanilla-road/
Or if you can't wait the 5 years or whatever:
https://www.thevanillaworkshop.com/speedvagen-road/
Or if you can't wait the 5 years or whatever:
https://www.thevanillaworkshop.com/speedvagen-road/
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Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Last edited by SJX426; 07-23-15 at 01:47 PM.
07-23-15, 01:57 PM
#36
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Another favorite is Strawberry. Met Andy Newland once, great guy and very down to earth:
Slideshow for album :: Strawberry shop tour
Slideshow for album :: Strawberry shop tour
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Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
07-23-15, 02:03 PM
#37
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Talk to Frank The Welder.
His work is, in a word: Perfection
He's got years of experience and knowledge and most importantly he cares. His welding torch is just an extension of his heart and it shows.
His work is, in a word: Perfection
He's got years of experience and knowledge and most importantly he cares. His welding torch is just an extension of his heart and it shows.
07-23-15, 02:34 PM
#38
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There are a couple of things to understand...when the frame was constructed and the kind of lugs can make a difference; IC lugs...which came later on most frame (late 70s and on) will usually look neater than press lugged bicycles...though they typically require less skill, work and refinement. IC lugs are cast, making a lot of things easier...so a production japanese bike with IC lugs will look neater than a press lug bike that may have required far more work and skill. Often you really can't judge good from bad with the paint on the frame, but if you look at bike boom bikes, you can see differences - some use more thinned out lugs with cleaner lines, some have gaps.
07-23-15, 09:30 PM
#39
Senior Member
You know, I think a lot of the low end - early to mid 70's bikes are probably gone by now. So, finding examples of really sloppy welds is probably pretty difficult at the current time.
07-23-15, 10:51 PM
#40
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Now if we can get Dave Wages to stay after he rides the Almanzo 100!
[IMG]DSCN5912 by gomango1849, on Flickr[/IMG]
[IMG]DSCN5912 by gomango1849, on Flickr[/IMG]
07-24-15, 12:35 AM
#41
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Comparing lug finishing (and that's what's primarily being discussed) between a mass-produced vintage bike and one made by a current custom builder is apples and oranges. A custom builder might spend a week on frame while a typical boom-bike was built in an afternoon, maybe less depending upon the manufacturer.
As previously pointed out, lug finishing doesn't necessary correspond to the quality of the torch work.
As previously pointed out, lug finishing doesn't necessary correspond to the quality of the torch work.
07-24-15, 08:21 AM
#44
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There are thousands of sloppily finished lightweights that have survived decades of use. Any frame builder worth their salt will agree you can't determine the quality of construction by the outward appearances of a joint. It's about temperature control and brass penetration, things that can't be seen in the finished product. The fascination with lug thining and shoreline filing is about aesthetics - which is fine, looks are important .
Beautiful finishing on this one:
My Gitane TdF has some of the sloppiest looking construction I've ever seen. But it's survived years of abuse and rides and handles better than any bike I've owned.
.Beautiful finishing on this one:
My Gitane TdF has some of the sloppiest looking construction I've ever seen. But it's survived years of abuse and rides and handles better than any bike I've owned.
07-24-15, 08:39 AM
#45
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There are thousands of sloppily finished lightweights that have survived decades of use. Any frame builder worth their salt will agree you can't determine the quality of construction by the outward appearances of a joint. It's about temperature control and brass penetration, things that can't be seen in the finished product. The fascination with lug thining and shoreline filing is about aesthetics - which is fine, looks are important .
Beautiful finishing on this one:
My Gitane TdF has some of the sloppiest looking construction I've ever seen. But it's survived years of abuse and rides and handles better than any bike I've owned.
.Beautiful finishing on this one:
My Gitane TdF has some of the sloppiest looking construction I've ever seen. But it's survived years of abuse and rides and handles better than any bike I've owned.
07-24-15, 09:22 AM
#47
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There are thousands of sloppily finished lightweights that have survived decades of use. Any frame builder worth their salt will agree you can't determine the quality of construction by the outward appearances of a joint. It's about temperature control and brass penetration, things that can't be seen in the finished product. The fascination with lug thining and shoreline filing is about aesthetics - which is fine, looks are important .
Beautiful finishing on this one:
My Gitane TdF has some of the sloppiest looking construction I've ever seen. But it's survived years of abuse and rides and handles better than any bike I've owned.
.Beautiful finishing on this one:
My Gitane TdF has some of the sloppiest looking construction I've ever seen. But it's survived years of abuse and rides and handles better than any bike I've owned.
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