I'm cheap, but not by choice :), I'll probably get less cheap with age, with an interesting correlation between college loan repayments and bike purchases.

Despite my little rant above, I do have to agree with you. And so: if you want my overhauled and smooth-as-butter Nuovo Record hubs that look like they were made last week, you will pay yer ass off. Or else I will keep them. (And I will!)

I cannot no longer afford a hand-made Columbus frame with Nuovo Record. Wish I could. But saying that ... if I see/find an 'Il Croco' (late 70's Montreal Columbus racing frame by Czech ex-pat/s builders) I'll raid my tiny horde that I have saved against my to-be-forced, and impoverished retirement. Sometimes the "now" defeats everything. (People my age wake up and say — "I'm still here!" ... and I am not too ancient.)

So,in a word or two, you are right.

I do not denigrate the market. I only observe what I can afford and watch how the market fares. Everyone selling anything wants to make the maximum profit. Well ... there are admirable exceptions on the part of perhaps millions of people out of us 7 billion on the planet. They are rare philanthropes.

Personally speaking, I believe in a 'fair price'. Nevertheless, if increasing rarity confers higher value, so be it. That's the market. And it is not run by Goldman-Sachs or Leman Bros, but rather by individuals deciding on what the traffic will bear.

What some people may not be aware of is a recently swelling interest in the Chinese market in regards to vintage velo. Uhhh-ohhh ... did I let out a secret? (Hehe). Perhaps like a lot of young Japanese, some Chinese seem to be deciding that velo trumps the auto ... or is it just a sideline hobby. Well, the jury is out on that. But the recent slide of the Yuan aside, the pressure may be on.

My prediction: ownership of excellent vintage will eventually (if not already) be in the hands of the upper percentile of wealth. I do not mean to denigrate anyone, but looking at some pics of vintage collections on IF varies from a single vintage machine leaning against a wall in a studio apartment to collections and workshop facilities that would engulph the entire first-floor of my ordinary, Japanese house. In this country, only the fabulously rich could afford what I sometimes see here on IF.

I am not protracting an argument. I am just stating that prices of vintage will seek (and are seeking) a level of good fortune. And at this time, almost any country on the planet has some, more, or many people (whatever the case may be) who can afford to ante-up according to their respective enthusiasms. And like fine watches, I can see a time when some special marques in excellent condition actually become investments.

Another prediction: someday, retro-steel will rule in favour of those who seek the old school originals. However, this may be become a niche market. The signs are already there. Most newbie, "drop-bar roadster" owners in my city simply opt for what the giant velo-chains are offering — 'Ashahi Jitensha' being the current huge brick-and-mortar purveyor.* If you want the modern equivalent of my Gazelle Champion as I have built it up, you will PAY! On the other had, a modest price will get you a very nice bike for what most people are seeking.

*These HUGE stores have burst on the scene amidst a new wave of cycling preferences and styles ... where once the 45 pound "mama-chari" shopping bike was virtually universal. The mom-and-pop cycle shop have diminished, much like other purveyors of goods that are now in the malls or the big brick and mortar (actual ferro-cement) emporiums that litter the sprawls of almost any town or city.

On fyxo a modern alloy Campagnolo group was reworked to be all bright alloy and using the "80's" Campagnolo shield logo.
This bike got the positive attention of Campagnolo.
Hopefully they can make a business case and create something like that or better.

Problem I see for the outside exercise oriented in the major Chinese cities is the air quality.
Acquaintances in Shanghai who relocated there for a business tour of duty are suffering.
Just don't ride near the ports.

Staying on topic in regards to vintage lightweights. Cheap? Maybe but maybe not, its about the attitude.

After my prized bikes were stolen some years ago, it took the entire cycling experience away from me. I paid a premium for them and the builds. Though I was selective and frugal, it still was costly. Literally was scoffed at by the police and the bandit insurance company. So I mostly gave it up, was mad and buried it all.

Out of that period and experience, I learned and re-evaluated myself. A few of my buds were getting back into it, but mostly on new CF top-end stuff. I wanted to ride again but not fall into the trap of having or striving for the best. Plus I looked at prices and started to think... hmmm, there's some cool vintage motorcycles for the same. But, I had just parted with my old leathers and gear so that closed the door on that idea.

Though I've always had an appreciation and respect for things that are old, I discovered its just as fun to use all of it. It doesn't matter.... could be old machinery, tools, a crackling tube type AM radio or vintage Hi-Fi. Also participate into early period auto's, struggling along and surviving challenging rally's with them, so for me having and riding old bikes are a natural fit. I even enjoy lower-end vintage bikes. No matter what one rides, a workout is a workout.

The mindset for old things or riding vintage bikes isn't for everyone, and I respect them. But I like how the old stuff adds another element to a ride. I'm not racing nor does it bother me anymore having a scratched up bike. I want to experience these machines and appreciate what a company created or perhaps sample what a racer struggled with.

As for acquiring, it's also fun having an old bike find me, rather than search it out. Yet, I secretly have been on the hunt for something with a Cambio Corsa or even Paris-Roubaix shift. That goal might be the exception and will likely pay the price. My priority is riding them and less concerns about value.

i don't pass on those. i am a noob compared to most of you, and i learned most of what i know about C&V bikes here. if i want it and i can afford it, i don't care what it's "worth", i buy it. sure, maybe i am inflating the market value but a 30+ year old handmade bike/frame that is a brand i am looking for, in good condition, and in MY size, doesn't come along very often. so i but them and enjoy them.

as I age I am getting cheaper. I look for sales when making purchases on necessary goods. I tend to avoid frivolous purchases. As a result, My bank account has more money in it when I find a bicycle that I want. Getting up to the level of "Grail" collecting, I have sold off 50 or so lesser bikes, and now everything I have is fully Campy equipped hand-made beauties. I have much more room at the house, and I am much more proud of my collection.

There is a lot of grouchiness in this thread.

A couple of points. Idiot kids that go to college to study Art, Theater, History, or general Liberal Arts stuff probably do struggle with debt after graduating. However, there are more open programming, networking and IT jobs in the US than there are people on unemployment. The average coder makes just a tad under $100k. Young people have money in their pockets these days and a lot of them came up through the fixie craze. Vintage cycling stuff is only going to get more expensive. A lot of young people have valuable marketable technology skills and their impact is changing property values and general price levels where they choose to live (San Jose, Cupertino, Boulder County, etc.) and play. They have an education and skills and more power to them.

A lot of young professionals do NOT have a limited income, and can pretty much afford whatever they want in terms of a house, new cars, bikes and vintage stuff of eBay and Craigslist. When you make $100k and you don't have kids yet, you can afford a lot of toys. I see Masarattis picking kids up at school, Ferraris, Lamborghinis, and the like cursing around. Not a lot but I notice them when I do. There are a lot of Moms & Dads under 40 with kids living in houses well over a million or 1.5M. They didn't get there by saving, saving, saving on a small or limited income, they got there by getting an education in a marketable skill relevant to the tech economy and working hard to get where they are at. More power to them.

The grumblings of old men in this thread…my thought is that everyone had their chances in life to make their own choices and to determine their own path. Complaining that others have more money or income or are raising price levels accomplishes what? If feels un-American. What do you want price controls?

Take a look at the relative price levels, adjusted say into gold. Things may "seem" like prices are going up but sometimes there are weird inflation/deflation factors in play. Is my house worth more if its worth $100k compared to ten years ago? Gold has gone from $350/oz to having flirted with $2000/oz. Now it looks to be trending downward and may pierce $1000/oz soon. Is the house really worth more? Did fiat currency valuations change? A house being worth $100k more could simply be the currency being worth less. That's not the case as we see other things in the basket of goods not having inflated, but the point is the same. Some things are scarce and price valuations change.

I agree with the one point in this thread. I've had a bunch of second tier bikes and components over the years that really aren't important to me. I've got a couple of sets of Suntour Command shifters in the garage. Why? Why not get rid of all the stuff I really don't want/need and accumulated over the past twenty something years and get something I really want.

Things young techies with money in their pockets want, that they aren't making more of (real estate, bicycling components, vintage bikes) might see price inflation. That's capitalism. If you don't like that what does that make you?

:rolleyes:
What is complaining but talking about stuff you don't enjoy? There's nothing un-American about that, and it's not 'feel'... who seriously 'feels' un-American? It's just your interpretation that Americans don't complain. Yes, I would like price controls. If not for me then for others. To me the mixing of people is American. The idea that one can work a job, be productive, and enjoy a nice life in a nice place is the epitome of it. I also think price controls protect older people on a fixed income. Perhaps you think kicking grandma out of her apartment of 20 years because I'll pay 400 more a month is American. I'd say you're wrong and I'd say grandma would have every right to complain as well with no risk to her American-ness.

Human? Someone driving up the price of something you've long enjoyed for a cheaper sum sounds like a bummer for me. Who cares if you can pull the definition of that economic concept from your noggin'? You don't have to like it and it means nothing else beyond that.

All I know, Rocket, is that you've cost me a few bucks over the year in the "are you looking for one of these?"thread. Don't stop!

It has nothing to do with whether or not I can afford it -I can. This is a relatively inexpensive hobby. The most expensive bikes are nothing compared to the cheapest Harleys, or power boats etc. Riding it is free unlike hitting the links or going skiing etc.

Part of the allure is finding bargains.

I am not afraid to spend money on something I want. I just don't waste money by overpaying.

Also, what was that rant about college majors? Not that it has anything to do with anything, but I have 2 undergraduate degrees. I have a BA in biology, and a BS in Business Admin (with a dual concentration in finance and marketing).

I also was a Phd candidate in Evolutionary Biology at Harvard but left with a MS so I could pursue other things, namely Olympic rowing.

+19 but I'm a bad counter.

I am frugel, cheap, or just tight with money because it does not grow on trees. When you are young you blow money like it is worth nothing, you spend it on good time, fast cars, fast women. Plus if it was an R & R, Liberty, Leave it was on an adventure, you might as well. Because you could be dead soon.

If you are looking for the perfect bike there is none, like the perfect anything. Some are just more exciting than other.

Some have the luxury of being consistent. While there is no disputing that I am becoming older and grumpier, my "cheapness" is relative. On the one hand, I set thresholds on what I would pay for a bike on CL or eBuy, but if I already have the bike, and have a project in mind, the threshold is 2 or 3 times higher when accounting for buying the necessary parts to achieve the results desired.

So now, I'm not just a cheapskate, tightwad, and retro-grouch. I am also a fickle conundrum.

If this gets the moderator to close this thread, so be it!

I've not read this thread in the same way as you have. Perhaps I am not alone. Moreover, you have a specific (dare I say sophomoric) view of the world that I don't believe is universally shared. Take for example capitalism: it is a very rare thing in the so-called "First World" / "developed" countries. Even where it may exist as an engine of an economy, it has has nothing to do with with private sales of vintage or classic bicycles and their component parts unless you want to factor in the merest of tangents.

And by the way, I don't get the grammar/ syntax of your last sentence quoted above. I could go on and on, but I'd better clam up now.

That is as about as grumpy as i usually get, but will not be spoken to this way on a thread I have written on without giving a response — call it grumpy if you will.

And, I think I am STILL on topic!

PS: Some of us are not even American, but my Canadian father was. He was raised and educated to maturity in three states; he would never have agreed to your tone and conviction — as Americanized as he was!

Yeah close it. Irony, pot, kettle, black, it's got it all. FIFY

edit...great thread otherwise. Except I've almost always ridden old humble and cheap bikes. Spoiled, really.

When it comes to talking about vintage bikes there is one rule of life that aptly applies and has worked for me: "desire always finds a way". There have been 3 bikes at the top of my dream list over the past 20-some years and are now sitting in my bike room. The Cannondale I purpose built (my speedy road warrior), the Trek 760 wallflower and my latest, the Colnago.

I watched and waited for 4 years as the owner/championship racer whom hadnt rode the Colnago since '78 just wouldnt budge on the thought of selling it. Forget that, right? Nope. I waited. Yet, when the moment was right I gave him FMV cash.....and made a friend at the end of the day. The '77 Colnago Super was finally mine but to afford it I had to sell a nice rifle. It was more costly than I would normally pay for a bike but is absolutely worth it to me.

I think you've encapsulated most of my thoughts about it.

Thank you.

Here is another example. Saddles. On my Cannondale I have a saddle that came off a Pacific Quasar mountain bike. Yepper. Tell you why....it fits. Secondarily, it's black so it matches the stealth fighter image of the Criterium Series. The MTB shaped object was purchased in 2000, the saddle is my good memory of the bike.

I think C&V bicycles are a great hobby. However, the value judgements in this thread are somewhat frightening. The position that someone should be inclined to sell you something below a price they want to receive so you can get a bargain has no utility for them. What is their incentive? The idea that the things we covet should come cheaply or easily to us isn't supported in the real world. I like uber rare groups, and unfortunately I also fit really rare bike sizes. I understand scarcity in cycling. If we lived in some society where everything was controlled by a Central Planning Commission we could all rest assured that society would be plagued with the problems detailed by Janos Kornai, in his academic treatments on political economy.

I don't want to live in a world of Shimano culture where there is one bicycle group good enough for everyone, plagued by manufacturing problems and availability. If some of the good stuff sells at a price point that some people that want it can't afford it, so what? That's called life.

If a little old lady can't afford the apartment she's lived in for 20 years, she doesn't have a divine right to live in Manhattan or Cambridge, MA. Why should a private real estate investor have to subsidize her poverty? She could buy a house in Detroit for less than $10k. Wanting to live in an expensive urban environment is a choice, not a right. If you believe in rent controls, you pay for it. Ultimately, they result in ghettoizing neighborhoods. Why should landlords invest money in upkeep or maintenance if their is no financial incentive to do so? They can't recoup the investment with higher rents that the market would bear?

Bikes and bike parts cost what they are worth. Sometimes sellers don't have a reasonable sense of market value. That's their choice. Its their damn bike and their kit. Complaining that other people won't sell you their possessions that you may covet seems ignorant and baseless. Get a job, make some money, buy what you want. Scarcity dominates, we can't all have everything we want. Only a child thinks in those terms.

My new beater is a 1980 Kuwahara American Flyer. I got it for $40. Guy I bought it from said he paid $20 for it at a garage sale. Just picked up a 1987 Lotus Excelle. Paid way too much for it ........... ! yow ! $120.. But, it's a nice small female friendly frame size. Japanese bikes are the best. Indestructable. Cheap & easy to fix. dON'T GET ME STARTED ABOUT ITALIAN BIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...................................

I laughed out loud. To quote the great Inigo Montoya, "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means." I like your idea of shipping the little old lady off to Detroit. You're quite the gentleman. Humorously, what you described is literally the definition of ghettoizing the little old lady. I bet it felt good though typing it out! ;)

Absolutely..... I sometimes wait for months to sell something on CL. I know what I have into it and what I want to part with it. Some sellers are greedy and/or clueless.... I am neither.

Your opinion of a fair price and mine may be different. Tough cookies.

Charming.

I've always been frugal, though I make enough to get most anything reasonable that I want. Heck I prefer to spend hours upon hours and lots of sweat equity gardening and hunting to be able to save a few hundred bucks on food (of course it's more than just a financial reason). I custom ordered a new truck with base model options, because literally every single truck on the lot was loaded. Why is that electronic button so much easier to press on the door rather than a mechanical button to lock it? I ordered it all plain vinyl floors and seats, no power or automatic anything, and I prefer it that way. Yeah I got to actually step out and turn the locks on the hubs to engage 4x4. So what? More reliable and cheaper. People are too lazy anymore, and can't be bothered with something more difficult than pressing a button. I actually want to down size my house. Sick of cleaning, maintaining, and spending utilities on 3k sqft. Would like more land though. Even though I'm only in my 30's I'm prepping for retirement (hopefully early)... Sure I could afford a 'nice' place but I don't want to be paying on an expensive house later in life, and some of these large but fairly normal houses everyone's buying now-a-days will have quite a hefty tax and utility payment even after the house is paid off.

Same opinion in cycling. I haven't been impressed enough with top of the line stuff to really warrant them, vintage or new. I don't keep up with the Jones, so names or bling factor is meaningless. I'm more utilitarian and very happy with my $80 LeTour (plus extra $75 for new tires) or my $300 Prologue. And I think they look as nice as any fancy bike anyhow. For my more used bikes I'm thinking about putting some money into getting brifters to make shifting more convenient (utility) but even with something like the 105-5800 groupset for $400 that everyone says is a steal of a good deal I still choke and hesitate spending that much for just not having to reach down to shift (plus required new wheelset).

Perhaps it's some to do with lack of peer pressure. I mean if every time I rode everyone made fun of my stuff I may think different unfortunately. But living out in a nice rural area away from it all I don't know if their are any bike clubs or anything like that around. I've never ridden yet with another soul, so its only myself I need to impress.

The year is 2017. Society has collapsed due to a bloated federal government and runaway entitlement spending. Only the richest and strongest survive in the new economy, and the bottom 99 percent must work minimum wage service jobs in order purchase drinking water and soy powder. Elderly people over 40 are sent off to the decaying, walled-in retirement colony of Detroit, where violence is the law and extra strength laxatives the only currency. On the Fourth of July, Air Force One — carrying newly elected president Trump, society’s savior and last hope — crashes deep in the heart of Detroit. Now only one man on a dangerous mission can save the president and our planet from certain doom: Lance Armstrong must ride deep into this wasteland on his classic vintage bike and bring The Donald back to restore the free world.

Someone get John Carpenter on the phone.