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~75/76 Klein

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~75/76 Klein

Old 08-25-15, 08:28 PM
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~75/76 Klein

I grabbed this a few weeks ago and it's now at the top of the wrenching pile. This will be a short first post, I'll add info as I can / as I find it.

Some info here from the original thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...annondale.html












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Old 08-25-15, 09:05 PM
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Pics show as-found condition with exception of the saddle. I'll have to reattach two of the three TT cable guides.



Black hardware from the original stem will be transferred to the replacement (120 vs the original 130). I also have some black cloth Tressostars and will replace brake pads/carriers along with brake cables/housing (maybe). The Unicanitor replaces a Vetta Gel seat that was on at the time of my purchase. Disassembling and cleaning will take place soon. Not much else to do apart from tires - in the meantime I'll ride with a Nemesis/Record 32h wheelset from another bike. It looks like the Klein will fit 25s no problemo and may fit up to 27s (hopefully). The chain is a SRAM PC-991 hollow pin 9sp that I hope plays nice with the rest of the drivetrain... Rings are Sugino Mighty Champion 47-51, Freewheel (needs some attention) is a Sachs-Maillard 6sp 13-23.



Can't wait to clean up and wax the paint, should look great in the sun.

For now, the ~75/76 estimate is based on finding a very similar Klein from '75 online (Quite very early Klein frame | Retrobike). The front and rear derailleurs on this one date to '75, the crank arms '80. I haven't touched the hubs yet, but will post the year found when I can.

I can't wait to get this on the road. I have an '07 CAAD 9 that's a great, snappy ride - weight between that and this is comparable by feel (no doubt thanks to the tubulars on this vs clinchers on the CAAD). I'll measure the geometry as best I can in the future.

I have not been able to locate a serial number and am interested to see if the steerer tube gives any info once I pull the fork (I believe Klein used Columbus tubing for the fork these). As for the lack of decals, I vaguely recall reading that early Kleins were custom orders and could be ordered with or without. I see no remnants of any and may leave it decal-free, especially if consistent with history on these.

I'm still learning about these, please feel free to chime in with any info.



(...the seatpost and stem aren't frozen, and the BB spins like butter.)

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Old 08-25-15, 10:31 PM
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Too bad somebody hack exchanged the brake pads and holders.
I would love to find one my size and this early.
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Old 08-26-15, 05:44 AM
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Very nice color on this bike...I love the close up shots of the color...is it truly a "brick red metallic" type look?
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Old 08-26-15, 07:38 AM
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Those downtube cable stops are really cool. Definitely seems custom; I can't imagine they'd mass produce a bike with stops like that? What are the bar ends? Campy?
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Old 08-26-15, 08:11 AM
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Just read the original thread. The whole story is one of the most thrilling C&V investigations I've ever read. Congratulations on a phenomenal find.
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Old 08-26-15, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
Too bad somebody hack exchanged the brake pads and holders.
I would love to find one my size and this early.
Thanks - I remember reading that you test rode one of these in '75. I'm beyond glad that this one found me, and in my size and excellent condition no less. Feels like a small piece of cycling history to me.

And yes, a shame that the pads were replaced with the Dia Compe set on there now. That will have to be remedied. Either the correct Campy, or perhaps a threaded set of finned Mathausers if I can track some down in good condition (regardless of the recent warnings here and on the CR list). Not sure of any other 'correct' options (or if the Mathausers would even be considered at all correct).
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Old 08-26-15, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by daf1009
Very nice color on this bike...I love the close up shots of the color...is it truly a "brick red metallic" type look?
Thank you much. Yes, the color is a dark/brick-ish maroon/red metallic.

My camera seems to be having a hard time in anything approaching low-light conditions and many images are slightly grainy. I'll try to take some better pictures outside soon, can't wait to clean/light-polish/wax the paint. The bike has been in storage in the previous owner's office since the late '80s / early '90s and has a light film of dust. Even with the dust the color appears very deep to the eye.
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Old 08-26-15, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jpaschall
Those downtube cable stops are really cool. Definitely seems custom; I can't imagine they'd mass produce a bike with stops like that? What are the bar ends? Campy?
Thank you. To my knowledge Klein didn't have production offerings until 1980 so this one would have almost certainly been made specifically for someone (I think...). '75/76 would have been the time when Gary Klein was building near MIT. I need to get back to my history lessons on these, I had a reading-marathon around the end of July when I purchased this, but some of the details are already starting to drift away.

The shifters are Suntour 3090 sans plastic 'grip'. VeloBase.com - Component: SunTour 3090 Bar-Con
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Old 08-26-15, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Just read the original thread. The whole story is one of the most thrilling C&V investigations I've ever read. Congratulations on a phenomenal find.
Well thank you very much. Yes, this has been a fun ride to-date and will only get better. I need to get in touch with Jon Rock in the UK to see if he can offer any info. I may also have an idea of how to contact Gary - that may be one of the few definitive ways (if not the only way) to get real information on the history of this bike. As you read in the original thread, this was bought by the previous owner at auction in the late '80s / early '90s and, so far, the bike's history ends there. The auction house it was sold through was one of the biggest in the area at the time and is only a 2-3 hour drive from MIT where this would have been made. According to the PO, the bike was listed/bought at auction as a prototype Cannondale. I doubt the original owner who had this bike made would have mistaken it as a Cannondale when transferring to the auction house, so unless the PO is mis-remembering the auction listing or mixing up the Klein/Cannondale marque (either of which could be possible, especially considering the amount of time that has passed) this may have changed hands more than once before it found its way to me.
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Old 08-26-15, 10:13 AM
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Can anyone offer a suggestion on how to best re-attach the two TT cable guides that broke free? A dab or two of epoxy and a patient hand is the obvious choice to me, though I wonder if something a bit more 'rubbery' like gorilla glue might provide just a bit of give and damp road induced vibrations at the interface between the guide and top tube (thinking being to try to avoid fatigue/vibration aging in a brittle epoxy). Flex of the cable housing under braking will exert a bit of force on these (esp the one closest to the rear brake), so perhaps epoxy is the better way to go.
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Old 08-26-15, 10:41 AM
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Wow, the barcons are almost unrecognizable without the black grips. What about losing the remaining cable guide and getting some clamp on's? Would probably look more uniform and require less effort than re-attaching the two broken ones. Or is this heresy?
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Old 08-26-15, 10:59 AM
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Heresy! In all seriousness though, thanks for the thought - if this were a lesser frame I might consider that option, but I want to keep this as clost to original as possible, so the cable guides will stay (and hopefully stay in place).

It'll be an interesting little puzzle determining which components are original and which are replacements. Date codes will help tell the tale. Consumables are obvious possibilities (including drivetrain components). I'm well aware that mixing components rather than sticking to a single manufacturer was the way of the times and I have no reason to believe that the mix of suntour and campy is not original to the build. The bike would have been roughly 15yrs old by the time it was placed for auction, and it retains the configuration from that time (the PO might be responsible for the gel seat that was on it when I bought it, but he hardly rode it as it was too large for him and he did not swap components), so it stands to reason that some components may have been replaced in the first 15yrs of its life (i.e. crank arms which date to '80, thus bringing the originality of chainrings and maybe freewheel and chain into question as well).


...What's with all the aluminum showing up here lately??

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Old 08-26-15, 12:42 PM
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Looks like Arnold Industries aluminum crack arm bolts:



That's some serious weight-weenie-ism. Be careful with those; when you install the arms, use steel bolts to seat the arms, then replace them with the aluminum bolts, tightened only enough to hold things in place. Otherwise you risk breaking the bolts, and the subsequent PITA in getting the remains out of the BB spindle.

Since the previous owner went to the trouble of installing those bolts, there may be other 1970s weight-weenie stuff as well, like OMAS titanium brake pivot bolts, titanium or aluminum stem bolts and seat clamp bolts, etc. Keep your eyes peeled...
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Old 08-26-15, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Looks like Arnold Industries aluminum crack arm bolts:

That's some serious weight-weenie-ism. Be careful with those; when you install the arms, use steel bolts to seat the arms, then replace them with the aluminum bolts, tightened only enough to hold things in place. Otherwise you risk breaking the bolts, and the subsequent PITA in getting the remains out of the BB spindle.

Since the previous owner went to the trouble of installing those bolts, there may be other 1970s weight-weenie stuff as well, like OMAS titanium brake pivot bolts, titanium or aluminum stem bolts and seat clamp bolts, etc. Keep your eyes peeled...
Thanks, those caught my eye as well. I haven't touched them yet, but assume you're right (miamijim also caught those in the original post to his credit). Will use steel bolts when installing the crank arms to be replaced with the Al after.

I'm also curious about any other hidden gems. The stem bolts are black anodized and not oem issue from what I can tell - I have an exact replacement (120mm, down from 130), though likely a different year, that has chromed steel hardware. The black ano'd wedge bolt takes a 7mm Allen versus 6mm for the chromed steel example I have. I haven't inspected the black hardware beyond a quick check to see if the stem is stuck (it's not). The seatpost binder bolt looks like a hardware store 5mm bolt, so that's interesting. I wonder what it replaced or if it's original to the build. Rear brake bolt was shortened on a lathe judging by tooling marks and a little nub in the center of the diameter where the extra length would have snapped off as the tooling reduced the diameter. I don't recall material for those, but will be paying close attention across the board as I disassemble and clean.

The bike is surprisingly light with heavier utilitarian/training tubs (Wolber invulnerable 84), especially considering the large frame and long steerer tube. Bars are 3ttt Superleggero. Someone did a great job of "adding lightness" a la Colin Chapman.

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Old 08-26-15, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Sir_Name
The stem bolts are black anodized and not oem issue from what I can tell - I have an exact replacement (120mm, down from 130), though likely a different year, that has chromed steel hardware.
Those probably are aftermarket weight-weenie replacements. When you pull them out, see if they're magnetic; odds are, they aren't.

The seatpost binder bolt looks like a hardware store 5mm bolt, so that's interesting.
How about the bolt(s) holding the seat to the top of the post? Those were also popular weight-weenie replacements BITD.

Rear brake bolt was shortened on a lathe judging by tooling marks and a little nub in the center of the diameter where the extra length would have snapped off as the tooling reduced the diameter. I don't recall material for those, but will be paying close attention across the board as I disassemble and clean.
Check with a magnet; titanium pivot bolts were popular with the weight-weenies.

What's the bottom bracket? Phil Wood?

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Old 08-26-15, 02:42 PM
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This bike looks similar to the one Gary Klein brought to a club race (NEBC, 1976) except it had DT shifters and the paint was deep blue, no metal flake. Those bikes were, if I am not mistaken, sold as frames only, so keeping it as original is at best, a guess unless you can find the original owner.

I'll guess those rims are Fiamme Ergals and period correct. (I raced those rims '77 and '78.) If so, they are very light, 290 grams. Rode them carefully.

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Old 08-26-15, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Sir_Name
Heresy! In all seriousness though, thanks for the thought - if this were a lesser frame I might consider that option, but I want to keep this as clost to original as possible, so the cable guides will stay (and hopefully stay in place).

It'll be an interesting little puzzle determining which components are original and which are replacements. Date codes will help tell the tale. Consumables are obvious possibilities (including drivetrain components). I'm well aware that mixing components rather than sticking to a single manufacturer was the way of the times and I have no reason to believe that the mix of suntour and campy is not original to the build. The bike would have been roughly 15yrs old by the time it was placed for auction, and it retains the configuration from that time (the PO might be responsible for the gel seat that was on it when I bought it, but he hardly rode it as it was too large for him and he did not swap components), so it stands to reason that some components may have been replaced in the first 15yrs of its life (i.e. crank arms which date to '80, thus bringing the originality of chainrings and maybe freewheel and chain into question as well).


...What's with all the aluminum showing up here lately??
People are starting to realize just how well vintage aluminum rides. You have to remember there was a HUGE misconception amongst cyclists and industry people about oversize aluminum when it came out. The LBS that only sold steel had to perpetuate myths about Cannondale calling them crank & fail, which is funny now that you think about it. I don't think any Klein or Cannondale ever failed like this gorgeous steel bike did just from hitting a rut in the road:

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-me...nd-repair.html

The reality is that the whole "Crack-n-Fail" pejorative is pretty ignorant considering how much stronger Aluminum frames are compared to steel frames, on top of just being stiffer. I think at this point while we still have the whole "steel is real" cult thing going on there are very few shops still trying to perpetuate the myth that Aluminum bicycles are the cause of all that is wrong in the world and the end of civilization as we know it. People fear change, and back in the early 80s shops that were independent bicycle dealers had contractual agreements to sell Schwinn, Trek, or what we call steel vintage lightweights now by Italian, French, or Belgian frame builders. Cannondale and Klein dealers and the public preference for these lighter, faster "rocket bikes" were a huge existential threat to their very business and livelihood. It was natural for there to emerge a false narrative that was pejorative about oversize aluminum bikes.

Relevant to your find, and my point here is that all the cats that were in that MIT Independent Activities Period group, I don't think one of those educated and learned MIT grads started a shop selling lugged steel frames. The point of the class was to pursue engineering and materials science solutions to building better bicycles. The reason we are seeing so many new vintage aluminum bikes showing up is that many cyclists are just now getting over the prejudice for steel they were inculcated with ignorantly by the people at their LBS or within their group rides. If you're on a high zoot Eddy Merckx MX Leader in your community you're probably very proud of that bike. Its probably the object of desire for a lot of people you ride with. It probably pisses you off when you go on group rides and some other guy that's always been weaker than you on the climbs is now way out in front leading the group on his Klein/Cannondale. You probably have some colorful things to say about his bike in the manner that only a private school kid insults a public school kid for their common upbringing.

Throughout the 80s into the early 90s the public was figuring out that oversize Aluminum frames gave a significant performance advantage when riding compared to steel. Consumer preferences changed and a lot more Cannondales and to a much lesser extent Klein bikes were sold. We are now seeing those bikes enter into the resale market as their original owners age beyond riding road bikes anymore or die off and are sold as part of the estate. Same process that brought all the vintage and classic steel into C&Vers hands from the previous generation of steel bikes.

There already is a steady trickle of carbon finding its way into the secondary market. You can get really nice Kestrel, Cinelli, Pinarello, Cannondale, and Trek carbon bikes that were thousands and thousands of dollars for not a lot of money. It remains to be seen whether Carbon bikes will hold up structurally long term (5, 10, 15, 20 years) when many of these were designed as single season (if that) high-performance race frames. RobbieTunes was making fun of how stupid cheap he's picked up a couple of exotic carbon bikes.

Lots more aluminum to hit the market in the years to come, but I suspect not too many original Kleins will actually be identified as the treasures they are. I wouldn't let the components be the rabbit hole that you think dates the bike. That's the mistake an anthropologist/archaeologist makes, thinking the context of the "found" antiquities at a site indicate an assumption that can be made about the site. For all we know all the bits on the bike were swapped and added for the auction if the person selling it at Auction wanted to fetch top dollar. Nothing would indicate we could authenticate that anything on the bike is from when the bike was actually built. I'd also be careful about worrying about what is and is not original. As far as I know Klein didn't have a "catalog" in the very early years, he wasn't building bikes with a given component spec. That is what makes your Klein so very special, how early it actually appears to be.

I thought this was a very special prototype Cannondale when I found the original Craigslist ad. Which is why I posted it to the C&V forum. Its at least that special, if not significantly more for being an early Klein. I'd rather have an early Klein than a prototype Cannondale. Heck, I'd settle for any BIG Klein at least 68cm. He supposedly made them 68-70cm, at least per the catalogs.

Since I found the bike you have to come to Colorado and go for a ride with me! I'm fat and slow so you won't be able to show off the performance of the Klein frame, but I want to see this in person. In fact I think all of us do. We really should start having regional C&Vers rides so we can all see all these gorgeous bikes that everyone has.
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Old 08-26-15, 05:43 PM
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Also my understanding is that some of the original cable guides have fallen off?

I know that for original Cannondale cable guides the facility that manufactured them for Cannondale burned down and the market went dry. However, with the advent of 3-D scanning and printing we can get them in colors now, but they aren't original:

cannondale cable guide (DV6C5USXL) by eclg

I'm pretty sure your Klein's guides were aluminum welded to the top tube, but could you have someone print you a copy of the guides in a frame matching color and attack like it was a Canndondale? That would look better than a fancy cable guide clamp in my book. What really are you thinking as a solution?
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Old 08-26-15, 08:23 PM
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Thanks, [MENTION=160550]mtnbke[/MENTION]. And thanks again for that fateful post of yours that led this to my little shop. Truly a great find, and I'm ecstatic to call it my own. A nice little blip in the development of bicycles from what was then the cutting edge (or one of them). Aluminum seems to be a love it or hate it material, more-so than some others. It has a purpose and it does it dang well if you ask me. Just with other materials, all Al bikes are not created equal in terms of not only craftsmanship, but ride quality (tires have quite the part in ride-quality as well). My Cannondale is a heck of a bike: snappy, responsive, climbs like a bird, and it just goes and goes. I have decent 25mm tires on it, but nothing too special (Conti Grand Prix Classic). I still have all of my fillings. Other bikes are more comfortable over long hauls, but the Cannondale evokes a certain grin that the others don't quite replicate. Not necessarily better, but different. One of the many good reasons to own multiple bikes. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, so I don't need to add much more other than I can't wait to ride this thing.

As for the cable guides: yes, the rear two separated from the frame, but (very, very) thankfully are still strung along the cable housing. It's just a matter of reattaching them. I'll be looking into various epoxies to see if one formulation may be better suited over others. Primary concerns are forces exerted on the joint by the cable housing under braking, and the effect of frame vibrations.
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Old 08-26-15, 08:35 PM
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D
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Those probably are aftermarket weight-weenie replacements. When you pull them out, see if they're magnetic; odds are, they aren't.

How about the bolt(s) holding the seat to the top of the stem? Those were also popular weight-weenie replacements BITD.

Check with a magnet; titanium pivot bolts were popular with the weight-weenies.

What's the bottom bracket? Phil Wood?
Thanks. Here's what I've got so far:
-Brake mounting bolts and nuts are non-ferrous, appear to be Aluminum (don't have the deep grey of Ti). Need to clean them and take a closer look - I'd think they'd be Ti rather than Al. The nut was installed at a fairly low torque.
-Stem hardware is Al and appears to match the chainring bolts - likely a set (had been wondering about material since I saw them)
-Seatpost seems to have standard single bolt SR hardware; steel bolt and wedge, rest is Al
-Rear der. bolts are Ti of course
-Pedal spindles might be Ti. I have two other sets of Campy SL pedals: one set installed on Camp. Strada crank arms (as with this bike), and one set on a shelf. Both of the other sets will attract the little fridge magnet I'm using to the inside face of the pedal spindle (i.e. the face towards the bike frame when installed). The SL pedals installed on strada cranks on another bike will hold the magnet against the back side of the crank arm all-day, no problem. I feel zero magnetic effect with the set installed on the Klein. What's throwing me is that the material of the pedal spindles on the Klein (after a quick wipe with a rag) doesn't look like Ti, but very similar to my other sets that are steel. Maybe a little darker. Need to remove the pedals to investigate, but that will have to wait for a bit just in case they put up a fight. The Klein pedal spindles do seem to match the look of a set on eBay that's claimed to have Ti spindles, so here's hoping...

The BB is not a Phil to my knowledge. The bearings are FAFNIR 203pp which appears to be a standard bearing (were these used by Phil?? I'm not familiar with his/their components in any real way). The BB spindle is interesting, and not Campagnolo from what I can tell. The little bit of surface I can see has a somewhat dull finish (perhaps just due to sitting for a couple decades) and has circumferential groves / tooling marks along the length. Will need to pull the crank arms to see more. I have no plans of touching the press fit bearings - they spin nice and silky as-is. I believe a racement kit for these BBs is available. Might be wise to grab one while I know I can.

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Old 08-26-15, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
This bike looks similar to the one Gary Klein brought to a club race (NEBC, 1976) except it had DT shifters and the paint was deep blue, no metal flake. Those bikes were, if I am not mistaken, sold as frames only, so keeping it as original is at best, a guess unless you can find the original owner.

I'll guess those rims are Fiamme Ergals and period correct. (I raced those rims '77 and '78.) If so, they are very light, 290 grams. Rode them carefully.

Ben
Thanks, Ben. Another good data point on Klein's bike(s). Were you at the race?

Yes, I should specify what I mean by 'original' - best I can probably hope for is original to when it was frozen in time for the auction in the late '80s or early '90s when the previous owner acquired it, which is as it sits now. Beyond that I might make a few educated guesses based on date codes or other clues as to what parts might be replacements, but what they replaced is anyone's guess. I'm quite happy with it as it is now.

As for the rims, they have eyelets and any markings have been removed. My guesses so far were either Fiamme Gi 8 [~355 g] or Mavic OR 10 [~320 g]. I'll add Ergals to the list of possibilities. I'm not too sure of how to narrow these down beyond look and weight, but they're staying built for now so weight will wait. Perhaps measurements for width/height will help also. These wheels are 28h F/R, and as they very likely are built with lightweight rims I'm considering building another set in 32h with a beefier gold anodized rim if I can find a pair. Any alternate set would also be built around low flange front and high flange rear record hubs - I like that touch on this set quite a bit.

Bob
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Old 08-26-15, 09:49 PM
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Dang, that thing is exotic. Incredible find. Have fun shining that babe!
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Old 08-26-15, 10:30 PM
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so cool!
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Old 08-27-15, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by OldsCOOL
Dang, that thing is exotic. Incredible find. Have fun shining that babe!
Originally Posted by Soody
so cool!
Thanks, guys. I hope to at least get to get it disassembled and clean up the frameset this weekend. Bike-time is in short supply lately and much of it is spent riding.
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