Tandem question.
 

So my wife informs me that she'd like a tandem bike. I'd like an older bike of course.
The problem is that I'm 5'9" tall and my wife is 5'13" tall :) She will not captain a tandem.

Anyone else face this problem? All the bikes I see have the taller rider in front.

I'm not sure what you mean by older, but other than maybe Jack taylor, most pre-80s tandems, and nearly all production tandems, are too flexy and too short at the stoker position with too short a wheel base. With the height issue you describe, that problem will be more pronounced. I'd stick to the tandem big guns - Sterling/Bilenky, santana, co-motion, burley and Cannondale. Stay away from the older Schwinns with her height. I'm sure I'm leaving some out, but you get the idea. Recently rode a peugeot tandem for a couple of miles down the shore - what an incredible piece of crap, but it made me appreciate mine all the more! I've seen treks that look good.

Bilenky makes a view point tandem - captain in rear - but they are $$$$$ and you'll still likely have the same fit issues buying one used. I think buying one used is going to require some fit compromises and playing with stems, posts and bars. You'll want a longgggg rear, a high seat post for her spot and a stoker stem that has a LOT of angle up. My stoker stem (going to Tom) was very adjustable on length, but you're going to want some angle to it.

I think you can make it work with a relatively standard sized tandem and some tinkering. Along with grounded expectations! My bet is you'll go custom if you find you like it. I was talking to Simon @ Hanford cycles about building a tandem, and he was talking pretty reasonable pricing compared to the others - and he's very good. He built his own view point for him and his wife and it's a beauty of a bike.

"Older".... 80's is my sweet spot. Newer is okay too. A new custom is not financially possible now.

I'd probably be thinking 90s. Keep in mind that Brifters, indexed and tandems are a good thing. The 80s bikes from the folks previously mentioned are probably fine, but I'd also probably upgrade drive trains. There's a lot more cable with a tandem - friction shifting can be a pita. I really like having an eccentric bb on mine and would recommend them.

I am very spoiled by mine (thanks Tom!) and might be too picky.

If you don't mind something very unconventional, you might take a look at the Counterpoint Opus. The stoker sits in front in a recumbent position and the captain rides upright in back. Very cool but weird, and probably not cheap if you can even find one used. That's my suggestion.

I see Bilenky makes one in the same style, too.

Edit to add that Bilenky bought the patent from the original manufacturer.

So that is where your daughter inherited her height.

A more modern tandem like the Trek below may work, the respective seat tubes look to be about 58/54. You can get a longer seat post for the stoker.

https://akroncanton.craigslist.org/bik/5128238050.html

It's a good suggestion, but the fit issues may be even more pronounced considering they're all custom.

Yep! My just turned 14 y/o son is 6'2" already. I'm the shortest in the family. lol
That Trek might be worth a look. Not too expensive and maybe a chance to see if the tandem thing might stick.
Thanks

Without going custom, it narrows the hunt in finding an exact fit for both riders. Though lots of variance can be made with eccentric bottom brackets, adjustable stems, and seatpost having extra adjustable set-back.

I'm still tweaking ours! I've even considered adjustable track stem for capt., adjustable stoker and forward mounted seat post.

Ps. By chance is there a nearby place to rent, test ride tandems? Just so you both feel its something could work in sync or better word... harmony :)

I agree. I've ridden a few older tandems, including a very limited production Paramount, and they are flexy as all get out.

I would not consider one except for the most casual riding and then you still have to figure out where to keep it.

If you want "vintage" get at least a 90's or up tandem with oversized tubes or you will be riding a noodle.

^ Yes and no about that. I've had some time on a Cannondale aluminum and our early steel Santana.

Starting in the very late 70's, let's just say early 80's, there were only a few but some with significant changes in tandem design. Shape of the boom tube, tube specifics, diagonals. Biased here, but Santana is a good example. If not counting grams, the ride is just absolute the most plush two wheel machine. There's only a nominal flex that is likely on par with most of my better solo bikes. A team with smooth cadence is crucial too.

Largely though, its what one perceives as flex. You can have the stiffest tandem frame made but because of the wheelbase, the weight of each rider plus add their body movement / inertia motion, most solo riders first think the frame is flexi.

What really is a mind pop is having the chance and invite to ride a state-of the-art new tandem. Two fairly strong riders - the power transfer, lightness, especially for climbs are incredible and a treat. No, should say awesome.

But then to get back onto the old Santana is like a WOW in ride comparison. Of course its not for the racers but its the pinnacle of fine comfy riders. You really wouldn't know of this unless actually experiencing on the same day. Immediate and huge difference. I'll get off my soapbox but its fun to talk to makers of tandems of that time. No way today could they afford to make such fine production steel tandems like those again. Nail the gearing down to help offset the handicap in climbs and you have fine rewarding tandem. For vintage 80's, shop for a deal on some better upper model Santana. You won't be disappointed.

Too much and wide topic for getting into here, but tandems are on whole different level of cycling. I don't blame others for not understanding why nor liking them but on the other side, can be some of the best experience and most fun. Whether the locomotive leading a paceline or thrilling hair raiser on fast descents, its at least worthwhile trying once and then make the call.

Perhaps that is the case with a new Bilenky but one of the features of the Counterpoint was the adjustable stoker boom, providing a bit of sizing variety up front. Cuts down on having to match all aspects of the frame to the riders.

Counterpoint Opus tandem

that's interesting. I don't know if the blink he has that or not, but it certainly a pretty cool feature.

Are there any tandems that are absolutely "square"?

Say get a size 58x58 tandem?

Then adjust the stems and bars to fit both riders.

Hmmm, I'm seeing quite a few 58x54 or 58x53 bikes :(

Perhaps add wide bullhorn bars for the rear (there was a chain about aero stokers).

i saw a few when I was shopping. But they were usually very racy customs, short wheelbase and aggressive

This is listed as 59.5 front, 59 rear.

Used Freschi Lugged Tandem Bicycle Frameset Excentric Campagnolo Headset | eBay

It would be a little on the tall side for the Captain, but it should work.

And, it should be fine for the stoker.

Perhaps try a 60cm regular bike, and see how it feels.

If you live in a city named "Milan", you NEED TO RIDE AN ITALIAN BIKE!!!!

It doesn't look like it'll be ready for a test ride, but perhaps the seller would entertain an offer if you could make it to Chicago.

I want to be sure that I can stand over the bike to control it at stops and for initial mount.

Here is one that is close enough. Thanks for the good information so far!

The owner is sending me some better dimensions. Bicycle Tandem Santana Blue 26" Wheels | eBay

Bilenky is still making them...the only difference is the 1 1/4 headtube.

I agree that there are 80s ones that would be OK, and I agree with those you mentioned. Santana as instrumental in modern tandem design for sure. I'd still go a little later for the drive trains.

It's a nice bike, but I think it's a touch small. The standover makes sense, but you also want stability...and I think that's going to be a touch small for you both, especially with the amount of seatpost you'll need.

Be patient.

I can pickup on Wednesday and am headed to Cleveland on Thursday.

I see them quite a bit, too. Like this beauty in Seattle:

http://images.craigslist.org/00V0V_e...iW_600x450.jpg

[MENTION=129154]KonAaron Snake[/MENTION] "be patient"

I agree, this purchase can be made this winter if need be :)
Cool thing about the tandem is my tall daughter can also ride it with me when she is home from college!

[MENTION=305894]oddjob2[/MENTION]

Thanks! I'll keep that offer in mind. You make trips to Cleveland quite often don't you?

Please believe me when I tell you steel tandems suck. I've got three tandems in the garage right now. A steel Arriva Santana, and two Cannondales. Steel tandems are just not good bikes. The stoker compartment is completely cramped because it has to be because to build an effectively long stoker compartment like on a Cannondale would leave the frame so completely flexy as to be absurd. Secondly, they already are so completely flexy to the point of being absurd.

You can buy a steel Burley tandem on Craigslist for about $300-$400 for a reason. Even the low and mid-range components on those Burleys can be sold for more than you paid for them. Tandem wheels, cranks, etc. all those proprietary and special bits like stoker stems are expensive. Especially if anything was ever upgraded.

Classic and Vintage bikes can be fun, and I'd totally recommend something like a vintage Schwinn tandem with a kickback 2-speed. However, for a serious road tandem I can't think of anything less enjoyable than a vintage tandem. The rear wheel spacing is going to be insufficient to build a strong wheel. Good tandems use 145mm rear spacing and Santana says to heck with chainline and uses an egregious 160mm rear spacing just to get a symmetrical wheel that isn't dished, or at least wasn't during the 9-speed days. With 11 speeds I wonder if 160mm and a bad chainline even makes sense anymore?

You really need to test ride some Cannondale, Co-Motion, and aluminum tandems. I always tell people that you should try to ride every tandem anyone will let you ride. Friends, people in your group ride, any shops that sell tandems if they will even let you test ride one (most won't). Find a tandem specific shop, but even those usually carry very very few bikes. A Santana Test Ride shop might only have one steel and one aluminum bike in your size.

There are people who have vintage tandems. That couple on these forums in Waltham Massachusetts has done Paris-Brest-Paris on theirs. They might have a different opinion. However, there is a tandem portion of these bike forums. You'll find a lot of people that think they love their steel tandems. What I will tell you is serious tandem teams ride on aluminum and carbon for a reason. Its a point of argument whether steel singles are relevant anymore or real, please believe me when I tell you steel does not ever build a good tandem.

Also, it has nothing to do with who is taller in terms of who the captain is. It has everything to do with who is heavier. If she is significantly heavier it makes it very difficult to captain. There are many tandem teams with fat stokers that are a point of contention for hard core cyclist husbands that are very thin. The first "real" tandem I ever saw was in Rochester, MN in a high end shop. The guy had rode his tandem in to have some work done on it. He was literally ranting in the shop. He had ridden the bike up a hill in town and he never had realized what a great climbing bike it was. Climbing on a tandem is just awkward, and learning to time standing together can take literally years, and many very experienced tandem couples NEVER figure out how to coordinate it. We can't'. This fellow realized his wife was literally not contributing anything to neutralize her, apparently significant, body weight. She literally was just sitting back on the climbs letting him pull her up the climb. Now I'll admit that it feels like that when you ride a tandem single. The bikes are so adept and climb well with only you on them. It is such a different thing climbing on a tandem. Both my wife and I feel the other person is never contributing. Its just so inefficient. Which is strange because a tandem is so much faster and more efficient all the other times. We are two fat people on a tandem. Its hilarious because you can literally pass a UCI Div I roadie on a pro team (we live in Boulder Country where several teams are based) and literally drop them on the rolling flats. They just can't possibly generate enough wattage to keep up with a couple hammering on the tandem on the rollers. Now the very second the rollers become a climb, the tandem can't keep up with any single. Unless you have two very coordinated and fit cyclists. Even with teams where both race singles, its hard to coordinate climbing. Natural cadences are different. Getting crank length perfect matters so much. Most people don't even know their optimal crank length. Bike fit is magnified a thousand times more on a tandem than a single. You unweight and unseat and stand up on a single hundreds of times without realizing it. You have to coordinate all of that on a tandem. Using the identical position, saddle, stem, bars everything can leave you with a very comfortable road single and a miserable fit on a tandem because you are literally stuck in your position for so much longer. You can't just stop pedaling without communicating, you can't stand or unweight without communicating. The tandem is freewheels with a normal cassette free hub, but the two cyclists are connected like they are on a fixed due to the timing chain. Its a very intimate feeling, but tandems have led to more divorces than most people realize.

When I bought my first tandem the salesperson was an experienced captain. He expained the tandem would magnify everything that was good in the relationship by ten. He said it would also magnify everything in the relationship by a hundred that was negative, dysfunctional, and any problems with communication would exacerbate to the point of threatening the relationship.

I gave a tandem to my father. He and his second wife loved it. She was an ultra-endurance runner. He was a strong and powerful cyclist, and they had totally different training paces. The tandem allowed both of them to get their sweat on without one of them feeling left behind. They usually rode their bikes alone. Or she'd run and he'd ride. With his third wife she hated it, and she was a runner. She was also a vicious evil control freak. So there's that. There are a lot of stokers that truly couldn't ride a tandem. They could never get past the feeling of giving up control. You can always find tandems cheaply because of how many stokers literally refuse to ever ride the bikes again with their captains. I've never been a stoker, I can't say if that's really a tough transition or not.

However, with steel tandems and tight cramped stoker compartments, the stoker really can't see anything but the captain's butt and back. Aluminum tandems have significantly large stoker compartments, Cannondale being amongst the longest. This gives a much more comfortable view of the scenery, and the stoker isn't' just staring at the captain's backside. Captain's never think about how a steel tandem or an aluminum tandem is a different experience for the stoker based on them literally not having a vision field to look at anything on tight compartments.

Enjoy your new tandem, but please test ride stuff. I would never ever encourage anyone to buy a steel tandem, and I own one just for friends to ride. They are always the wrong choice. They are much much cheaper though. Many tandemists on the tandem part of this forum disagree with me. They have steel tandems, including some classic & vintage ones. On a steel tandem the team literally has to alter their cadence to avoid biopacing, the frame flex is that bad.

My advice is stick with known main brands: DaVinci(aluminum only), Cannondale, Co-Motion (aluminum only), Calfee, Paketa, Santana (aluminum only). After that Trek and Burley, but MUCH after that. The niche tandems from vintage famous framebuilders are usually pretty horrible tandems.

The punchline of tandems is just how important frame stiffness is. Its everything! Lemond is famous for saying stiffness was overrated. When Lemond wanted a tandem he wanted a Calfee carbon tandem for the combination of other-worldly stiffness and lightweight. Yet Lemond also absolutely wanted the unique independent pedaling system unique to DaVinci tandems. Greg Lemond succeeded in bringing the two companies together on their Carbon-fiber JointVenture which DaVinci now sells. When Greg Lemond starts asking a company that makes steel and aluminum tandems to consider the sacrilege of letting another company work with them to provide a superior carbon tandem with even more stiffness using their unique independent drive system, you know stiffness matters on a tandem. More than in ANY context in cycling, even more than racing on a single, stiffness matters on tandems.

The Stoker is usually on a suspension seaport like a tamer or a Thudbuster ST, anyway, even on a steel tandem. Riding in the back of a tandem is like riding on the back of the bus, not matter what the material is. Stokers do NOT like riding without a small suspension seat post, and they really don't like it when captain's don't call out the bumps. You get pinched. Santana used to license the Softride beam for their tandems, which is the one place I think it really made sense.

Last thing. With height disparities, one of the cyclists can actually be significantly stronger than the other. One can feel like the other is just dropping the pedals out from under their feet. Most teams don't consider it, but you can ride 90 degrees out of phase, that way each of you are contributing wattage during a separate part of the spin. My wife and I are going to switch to out of phase. You can't go 180 degrees out of phase. Its dangerous. Bad things happen with the harmonics and you'll crash. However, 90 degrees out of phase has a big following. Well a small following considering how few tandems actually exist, and how few actually ride out of phase, but those that do love it. A lot of teams tried it and hated it.

Ideally I'd like a DaVinci independent pedaling system tandem. If you go to the DaVinci website they claim only one customer EVER has asked them to lock out the independent pedaling system. I've actually met an older couple that was riding on the diagonal in Boulder County on a DaVinci. They hated the Independent pedaling and had it locked out. Apparently I've met "the one." They love their bike, they hated independent pedaling. The point of independent pedaling is they have to be careful to not end up 180 degrees out of phase. Anything else is fine, as long as the captain is significantly heavier.

I'm about the biggest captain around, at 6'7" and close to 400lbs. I'll tell you it is disconcerting when even little stokers start wiggling around back there, and I dominate anyone's size/weight. On a steel tandem its a nightmare. All the serious tandem couples I've ever met did NOT have a steel tandem. However, steel tandems are cheap, and for thousands of people the budget dictates. However, you can ALWAYS get a used Cannondale tandem for about a thousand dollars if you look. As long as they have a 1 1/8" or larger steerer and 145mm rear spacing you're good. You'd prefer the 145mm rear spacing over the now obsolete 140mm rear spacing. You don't want a 1" steerer on a tandem, not safe. Also you never want a hyper light weight road bar for the captain, or his stem. Pictures of captains holding broken bars or stems always seem to be circulating.

Wow. So much stuff.

I shall hold my tongue except to say that we rode our tandem 62.5 miles over some interesting terrain yesterday, 56.2 miles the day before that. We are not a heavy team but we do load it up with stuff sometimes. The bike has never felt like the descriptions I'm seeing here.

I'm not a fan of aluminum. I will likely buy a butted steel bike.
What do you have Jim?

Jim has a Peugeot, same as me, but I'm a lot closer if you want to see one in person. Mine is 1980, but I'm not sure the rear position would be big enough.

There was a discussion over on the Tandem forum a while back from a woman who wanted a tandem to ride with her sight impaired husband. She was looking for a similar setup, but I don't recall how it turned out.

Edit: I pulled the tandem down and measured the rear, it is a 20 inch (C-T) seat tube with about 3 more inches available to raise the seat post. About 33-34 inches max from pedal to top of seat.