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Why the hate for Shimano 600 Arabesque?

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Why the hate for Shimano 600 Arabesque?

Old 09-06-15, 05:28 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by ppg677 View Post
Campy Record side pulls seem to break alright for me.
I agree, given that we mean BRAKE, not BREAK.
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Old 09-06-15, 05:41 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Steve Whitlatch View Post
Well one of my bikes has Campagnolo NR and it works ok. The brakes are not very good either. I am currently re painting a 1981 Miyata 912 frame set that I picked up an Arabesque group set for. I guess I will find out how bad this group is as well. Thanks for the set up tips in this thread. Should help me out too.
As my other post shows, I didn't like the brakes, but after all the tweaks I discussed in my post they are ok. Not as good as my classic NR side pulls (I totally disagree that their brake power is low), but better than the old Weinmanns after tweaking. I would say:

Freewheel hubs, both function and rebuild very well, but I just like the classic slim look of the Campy Record
Front mech, just as good
Shift levers, Campy holds its friction setting better
Rear mech, Campy shifts better in close-ratio setups (14-24 to 13-26), but Shimano 600ex 6207 has a wider range.
BB, equal
Headset, both very good, but Shimano requires a special wavy-contour wrench, where the Campy wrench style remains a standard
Crankset, NR is lighter but otherwise equivalent
Brakes, Campagnolo is better in power, stiffness, consistency of setting, quality of the hardware, and quality of levers.

I've had no breakages in either gruppo.

Price was certainly a nod in favor of Shimano. Now on the used market Campy seems to be hated and Shimano is revered. At this time I'd have to say price kudos to Campy, except for good used Record headset parts - I think they're extinct!
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Old 09-06-15, 07:05 AM
  #53  
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NR rear derailleurs, shift horribly. The brake levers only work well for me from the drops, since the pivot point is so low. Just my opinions, built on personal experience. I am sure I will get chased out of this thread for that.,,,,BD

In their defense though.... I rode a bike for a while with a 1994 8 speed group. They had finally figured it out, and it shifted nice and crisp. The brake levers still felt the same though.

Last edited by Bikedued; 09-06-15 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 09-06-15, 07:11 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Bikedued View Post
NR rear derailleurs, shift horribly. Just my opinion, built on personal experience.
Sure, but they're predictably, reliably horrible. And they can be improved considerably with the right shift levers, i.e. Simplex retrofriction.
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Old 09-06-15, 07:30 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Sure, but they're predictably, reliably horrible. And they can be improved considerably with the right shift levers, i.e. Simplex retrofriction.
For me, my older bikes are beautiful machines that get ridden fast but not pushed to the limits. I require adequate performance. So as long as the Arabesque functions at a tolerable level for me, I should be fine. When I want to ride super hard and push to the limits, I grab my 1984 Guerciotti with Shimano Tri Color group and 8 speed brifters. That bike offers great confidence at fast hard levels and stops on a dime.
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Old 09-06-15, 07:32 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by ppg677 View Post
Campy Record side pulls seem to break alright for me.
How did you break them?
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Old 09-06-15, 08:24 AM
  #57  
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Shimano made a real effort to add features to justify Shimano 600 turning into Shimano 600 EX. The pulley cage was redesigned to allow you to fit a chain without breaking it (athough, unlike SunTour’s ‘Quick Cage’ , on the one hand you needed a Phillips head screwdriver and on the other the chain was properly ‘trapped’). The pulley cage also had clearance for covering a six speed cassette on Shimano’s new freehub system. The cable clamp bolt became a 6mm allen key bolt, the same as the hanger bolt.

Finally, and most famously (notoriously?), Shimano added psychedelic ‘Arabesque’ patterns. This was just plain weird, but it did make it aesthetically difficult to mix this groupset with others - and it was noticeable how many up-market mass-produced bikes came with complete 600 EX groupsets - a new phenomenon. Probably much appreciated by Timothy Leary and Carlos Castenada.
A fine derailleur - the start of Shimano giving the SunTour V series some serious competition.

Shimano 600 EX GS Arabesque derailleur (6210)

The early Shimano 600 derailleurs were revolutionary in a number of ways. They were part of a full groupset - a new phenomenon for a mid level price point, they were designed for Campagnolo drop-outs (gone was the homage to Simplex), and most important of all, they were well finished and looked ruthlessly composed and modern. I can well remember marvelling at the sheer glamour of mid-range bikes kitted out in the full 600 groupset - they looked so much better than their peers clad in a mishmash of Weinmann centre pulls, SR cranks and SunTour V series gears.

This example is a long pulley cage version of the very first generation which, I have been told, have 6000 model numbers (which makes sense - but I have never seen these numbers in a catalogue). The distinguishing feature is that the ‘600’ on the outer parallelogram plate is in large script.

All in all, a pretty damn fine derailleur - even if it did not change quite as well over a wide ratio freewheel as a SunTour Vx GT.
Shimano 600 GS derailleur (6001?)
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Old 09-06-15, 08:29 AM
  #58  
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Whose quotes are those? I can't make sense of them.

EDIT: I found the quotes at the links, but still not quite making sense of it all. The Disraeli reviews seem really casual (in the technical sense) if you ask me, i.e. hard to discern fact from opinion/hearsay.

That the styling almost forced the components into a group is a very good point though.

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Old 09-06-15, 11:21 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Bikedued View Post
NR rear derailleurs, shift horribly. The brake levers only work well for me from the drops, since the pivot point is so low. Just my opinions, built on personal experience. I am sure I will get chased out of this thread for that.,,,,BD

In their defense though.... I rode a bike for a while with a 1994 8 speed group. They had finally figured it out, and it shifted nice and crisp. The brake levers still felt the same though.
I find the brake levers need with the bar and the lever placement to fit my hands. If I get that installation right I can brake reasonably from the hoods. But I don't get full braking unless I go to the drops. Aero levers still have a more advantageous pivot point design.

As usual, YMMV.
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Old 09-06-15, 11:32 AM
  #60  
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Oops, I meant brake!!
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Old 09-06-15, 11:51 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by ppg677 View Post
Oops, I meant brake!!
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Old 09-06-15, 12:25 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
Whose quotes are those? I can't make sense of them.

EDIT: I found the quotes at the links, but still not quite making sense of it all. The Disraeli reviews seem really casual (in the technical sense) if you ask me, i.e. hard to discern fact from opinion/hearsay.

That the styling almost forced the components into a group is a very good point though.
...I find his reviews to be very entertaining, and for the most part, they are in keeping with my own experience of the derailleurs I've personally used. Of course they are only the opinions of the person who writes them, but I consider them to be relatively well informed, and I included them for that reason.

If you can find reviews that are based on "fact", you are doing better than I am. Most reviews I've seen of components and their performance are opinion based. i.e., what sort of double blinded testing by a substantial group of users do you ever see in the trade press.......which is where most reviews appear.........which is ultimately tied to advertising revenues.
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Old 09-06-15, 12:45 PM
  #63  
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So it seems like just as soon as they got the slant parallelogram together with the indexing, it was over for everyone else?

I don't have any experience with these parts, I suppose I don't think they'd be too bad considering I have a cheaper full-steel-chrome version of the "slant pantograph" RD on my Super Sport and I think it shifts a ton better than the NR on my Paramount.

I do sort of covet these.

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Old 09-06-15, 02:26 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post

The crankset is light and looks nice, but is on the flexy side as one might predict by looking at the dimensions.
FWIW it's the only crankarm I ever snapped in two, out of the saddle, beside a car and a steetcar. Almost soiled myself. Drive side if it matters. It had a void inside.

Originally Posted by nesteel View Post
People see Shimano 600 and automatically equate it with high quality. It didn't start out that way.
You could say the same thing about 1st gen Dura Ace centre-pulls...they looked and performed like re-branded Titleist.

Last edited by clubman; 09-06-15 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 09-06-15, 03:01 PM
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The 600 / 6200 Arabesque is considered by many to be a very attractive looking groupset but commands more money that what it is worth if you are looking for higher performance.

6400 is where things get really sweet and where the bang meets the buck.
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Old 09-06-15, 03:25 PM
  #66  
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The audience for that Arabesque stuff is an attempt to avoid the universal Japan parts. Its distinctive. For that, I like those components.

It's funny too as the majority of cyclist today on modern bikes look at anything with dt shifter as a PITA. Doesn't matter if Campy, Shimano, Suntour.... and all the French combined or what level. Its baffling to them. Meh, whatever the pitfalls of the Arabesque, I'd still accept it.
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Old 09-06-15, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
6400 is where things get really sweet and where the bang meets the buck.
I thought the 6200 SIS 600 stuff was supposed to be pretty good-



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Old 09-06-15, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
I thought the 6200 SIS 600 stuff was supposed to be pretty good-



...that long cage derailleur is almost unobtanium around here. I have a couple on light touring bikes and they work as well as anything I've ever used. Don't tell people or it will get even harder to find them. But I think that by the time the SIS stuff was being produced a lot of the design and production had changed dramatically.
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Old 09-06-15, 05:17 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post


You could say the same thing about 1st gen Dura Ace centre-pulls...they looked and performed like re-branded Titleist.
The Dura Ace center pulls were never part of the Dura Ace group. They predated the group. The name of the brakes was changed to Tourney when they decided to take the Dura Ace name for their flagship group. The first generation Dura Ace group included beautiful side pulls. I bought the first set I ever saw.
Shimano 1973 Dura-Ace Catalogue
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Old 09-06-15, 05:35 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
The Dura Ace center pulls were never part of the Dura Ace group. They predated the group. The name of the brakes was changed to Tourney when they decided to take the Dura Ace name for their flagship group. The first generation Dura Ace group included beautiful side pulls. I bought the first set I ever saw.
Shimano 1973 Dura-Ace Catalogue
Yep, that's exactly the pair that I have!
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Old 09-06-15, 05:57 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
The Dura Ace center pulls were never part of the Dura Ace group. They predated the group. The name of the brakes was changed to Tourney when they decided to take the Dura Ace name for their flagship group. The first generation Dura Ace group included beautiful side pulls. I bought the first set I ever saw.
Shimano 1973 Dura-Ace Catalogue
Oops, yes Tourney. I had the complete first gen DA in black with Crane gear. I think it was 76 not 77. Beautiful and functional and I was stoopid to sell it as it was a mint take-off. This thread touches on Shimano's marketing weaknesses when it came to clearly defining parts and groups. The 600 series had way too many variances. Different nomenclature issues arose with the early mtn groups in the late 80's. Too many labels for drivetrains with no real obvious differences. 200/300/400/500GS's, CX, exage, Deore, mtn exage, mtn LX/Dearhead/LX/DX/XT etc.

Suntour was scrambling around this too but Campagnolo was always much more together in their product releases IMO.
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Old 09-06-15, 10:24 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
I do sort of covet these.

Me, too. I don't think I've seen 600EX high-flange cassette hubs in the flesh. I wonder if they were ever imported.

I made a reasonable facsimile from a newer Deore XT disc brake hub. A little work with a lathe and presto:

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Old 09-06-15, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Grand Bois View Post
The Dura Ace center pulls were never part of the Dura Ace group. They predated the group. The name of the brakes was changed to Tourney when they decided to take the Dura Ace name for their flagship group. The first generation Dura Ace group included beautiful side pulls. I bought the first set I ever saw.
Shimano 1973 Dura-Ace Catalogue
I have a bike with the center pull DA's, with a DA crank, and crane long cage RD. The brake levers are very similar to first gen DA, but have turkey levers. The bike is a 73/74 Volkscycle Mark 100. It also has Shimano bar end shifters that look like the catalog pic, but are branded 3.3.3. like the three speed hubs. The hubs are large flange Shimano, also branded 3.3.3. and look like the hubs above, but no oil clips and freewheel obviously(not cassette)
,,,,BD

Last edited by Bikedued; 09-06-15 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 09-07-15, 09:37 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
I think that by the time the SIS stuff was being produced a lot of the design and production had changed dramatically.
The SIS components not only featured Shimano's new indexing system, but also incorporated SunTour's slant pantograph design, which had just come off patent protection. The combination of features in the SIS derailleurs (upper and lower sprung pivots, indexed shifting based in the levers, dropped parallelogram, and slant pantograph) are now found on virtually all rear derailleurs on the market today.
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Old 09-16-15, 01:00 PM
  #75  
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Hmmm
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