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1940s/50s Singer Grand Sport

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1940s/50s Singer Grand Sport

Old 11-19-15, 11:11 PM
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good to read you were able to remove the gear block.

the tool you made is nearly a dead ringer for the one hanging on me toolboard.

since you seem knowledgeable as to metal working i wanted to ask a question regarding the hubs. the shoulder shows something akin to a gnurling pattern. have seen this on other vintage hubs and assumed it to be a vestige of some metal working step. do you understand what it is?

have you considered the possibility that the marking stamped into the hub barrel could be a misstrike and the full marking might be circular? showed marking to two friends more knowledgeable than meself for their opinions and one of them suggested this possibility. it did not make sense to me since if the strike had been misaligned there would be a deeply struck and a shallowly struck side. however the marking looks quite even in that respect.

tried unsuccessfully to find some information on peyrard founder. was hoping his first initial might be an l but found nothing. maybe someone will know this marking on the crank arms...

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Old 11-20-15, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela

since you seem knowledgeable as to metal working i wanted to ask a question regarding the hubs. the shoulder shows something akin to a gnurling pattern. have seen this on other vintage hubs and assumed it to be a vestige of some metal working step. do you understand what it is?
I think the spiral knurl is how they capture the dust cap seal; I suspect it is permanently attached. At assembly, they would drop the seal washer into a bore in the hub with a lip around it and then roll the lip down to capture the seal, easier than cutting an undercut in the hub. I was concerned about trying to pry them out (as in a modern hub) when I serviced the front for fear of bending the seal, so I just cleaned out from under it with solvent and a Q-tip and repacked the bearings. Anyway, that's my guess as to the knurl, without risking destruction can't know for sure.

Originally Posted by juvela

have you considered the possibility that the marking stamped into the hub barrel could be a misstrike and the full marking might be circular? showed marking to two friends more knowledgeable than meself for their opinions and one of them suggested this possibility. it did not make sense to me since if the strike had been misaligned there would be a deeply struck and a shallowly struck side. however the marking looks quite even in that respect.
I don't think it is a mis-strike, the rear hub stamping is identical to the front.

Once again, much thanks!
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Old 11-20-15, 06:37 AM
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[I think the spiral knurl is how they capture the dust cap seal; I suspect it is permanently attached. At assembly, they would drop the seal washer into a bore in the hub with a lip around it and then roll the lip down to capture the seal, easier than cutting an undercut in the hub. I was concerned about trying to pry them out (as in a modern hub) when I serviced the front for fear of bending the seal, so I just cleaned out from under it with solvent and a Q-tip and repacked the bearings. Anyway, that's my guess as to the knurl, without risking destruction can't know for sure.]

thanks so much for this explanation. had oft wondered about this. sounds like you did just right with your repacking. there are some one-piece alloy hubs which are made similarly, both with and without visible knurling. the mechanic must be careful not to pop out the dustcap because there is no way to reseat it.
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Old 11-24-15, 09:58 PM
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Henri Gauthier Mod. 160 Saddle

Continuing with my cataloging of this bike, it is fitted with a Henri Gauthier Model 160 saddle. It's in a fairly extensively aged condition with surface cracking and major variable discoloration. But considering its age I'm glad it is still rideable and based on a short ride, comfortable. For an upright riding position its alright.


View from rear


Closeup of imprints


Top view


Underside


And an exploded view of the clamp and post components:
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HGS avec seatpost & clamp.jpg (95.6 KB, 524 views)
File Type: jpg
HGS back view.jpg (93.2 KB, 523 views)
File Type: jpg
HGS clamp.jpg (95.1 KB, 512 views)
File Type: jpg
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Old 11-24-15, 11:26 PM
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thanks for this new information.

did you discover any markings on the saddle's heel plate?

french ones usually do not have them but no harm to ask.
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Old 11-25-15, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela

did you discover any markings on the saddle's heel plate?

french ones usually do not have them but no harm to ask.
No, no markings anywhere on the plate, neither anywhere on the leather other than the stampings.

Someone, somewhere along the line is going to say "oh that version was current during such and such a time" and then I'll have a good lead to pursue. Aside from that at least this will add some more data points for others in their searches.

My best leads so far may come from the Simplex Route Leger rear derailleur. The non-toothed steel pulleys should be earlier in the life of that product line. And of the idler (lower) pulley cage styles I think my D-shaped style is earlier than the (apparently) later rounded style.
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Old 11-25-15, 10:20 AM
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thank you.

member amirinisrael has begun a saddle manufacturer directory. thus far it is brand names and country of origin. at some point he may be able to fill it out with additional information about models and dates.

Saddle Makers | saddlewax.com

expect you have already checked at tonton for information on Gauthier...

going back to the hub barrel stamping -

Verktyg has posted in a recent thread that at one time Atom and Normandy were separate from Maillard. we have all seen the Atom quick release skewers with the marking "MM ATOM" on the lever. the MM part likely stands for Maurice Maillard to differentiate them from products made by Atom prior to the Maillard acquisition.

this made me wonder if an earlier name for the Maillard firm might have been Raccord Maurice Maillard, which would yield the RMM acronym. mo' wylde speculation
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Old 11-25-15, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
thank you.

member amirinisrael has begun a saddle manufacturer directory. thus far it is brand names and country of origin. at some point he may be able to fill it out with additional information about models and dates.

Saddle Makers | saddlewax.com

expect you have already checked at tonton for information on Gauthier...

going back to the hub barrel stamping -

Verktyg has posted in a recent thread that at one time Atom and Normandy were separate from Maillard. we have all seen the Atom quick release skewers with the marking "MM ATOM" on the lever. the MM part likely stands for Maurice Maillard to differentiate them from products made by Atom prior to the Maillard acquisition.

this made me wonder if an earlier name for the Maillard firm might have been Raccord Maurice Maillard, which would yield the RMM acronym. mo' wylde speculation
Once again, thanks for your considerations. Yes, I have checked tonton, to little avail, but that is largely due to me not knowing French!

"Raccord Maurice Maillard" sounds plausible. One of the very few leads I've found on RMM is this one, which appears to be a translation of a 1958 Follis catalog, where RMM hubs are listed in both low flange and alloy versions. So I know they are out there.
https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/catalog...ranslation.txt
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Old 11-25-15, 12:33 PM
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very fine detective work, and the bicycle also came with a Gauthier saddle.
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Old 12-01-15, 10:21 PM
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Mismatched Pedals

Can anyone identify brand or model of either of these pedals? Both are French threaded. I suspect they are both Lyotard but I can't identify either. If I can find a single companion to either then I may go with matching and bag the other for later reference.

Any leads much appreciated. No markings found on either.

LHS - all steel, part of the sheet metal forming the side plates wraps around to the platform face. Most of the surface is lightly rusted, may originally have had a dull chrome finish. Yes, it needs a dust cap, I'll fab one if I decide to use this one.



RHS - Has a much better surface condition, appears bright chrome. I suspect this pedal may have been swapped in later.
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pedal - right hand side.jpg (96.9 KB, 514 views)
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Old 12-02-15, 01:27 PM
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possible first pedal may be Eclair brand.

some vintage Lyotard models are shown here, but alas no exact matches:

Lyotard Pedals

Velo-Retro offers the Fonteyn catalogues of 1937 and 1950. they were a Lyotard stockist so one or both pedals may lurk therein:

https://velo-retro.com/list.html

Last edited by juvela; 12-02-15 at 01:37 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 12-19-15, 09:17 PM
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Just for the sake of interest I thought I'd post specs and pics of the inner tubes fitted to this bike. I realize the tires and tubes have a very low chance of being original. Both tubes have a stem base nut to the Presta valve which I don't believe I've seen before on tubes I've used. Both have the longest imprinted specifications I've ever seen on a tube. The rubber on both tubes is way more supple than any I've seen in tubes that I can remember. The surface finish on both is a sort of matte, unlike the very smooth mold finish seen on typical newer tubes. Lastly, the inner tube brand matches the tire brand it's used with, maybe they were replaced as matched sets at different times in the life of the bike

Michelin AirStop Front Inner Tube


Wolber Rear Inner Tube
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Old 12-22-15, 01:02 PM
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Thanks for this new information.

Are the rimstrips Rustines?
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Old 12-22-15, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
thought perhaps the diamond could be a clue to acier diamant. made me wonder if lpf could have been a company behind acier diamant...or another badge from the same maker. however the acier diamant logo is something akin to a shooting star or comet.

pm if require assist with gear block removal.


Do you still think that? This came from a 1950s Riva Sport.

Originally Posted by 73StellaSX76
Can anyone identify brand or model of either of these pedals? Both are French threaded. I suspect they are both Lyotard but I can't identify either. If I can find a single companion to either then I may go with matching and bag the other for later reference.

Any leads much appreciated. No markings found on either.

LHS - all steel, part of the sheet metal forming the side plates wraps around to the platform face. Most of the surface is lightly rusted, may originally have had a dull chrome finish. Yes, it needs a dust cap, I'll fab one if I decide to use this one.



RHS - Has a much better surface condition, appears bright chrome. I suspect this pedal may have been swapped in later.
You might see if the Atom dust caps fit as these pedals appear to be their work. Lyotard did make very similar stuff (their 460 is my favorite pedal of all time); don't take my word as gospel. But if you look at the pedals on a Schwinn Sports Tourer from the early 1970s, you will see something very similar! The dust cap is a bit different, but there were optional unthreaded dust caps available. Usually they were alloy.

Fabulous find BTW!
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Old 12-22-15, 09:07 PM
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[QUOTE=Salubrious;18408302]

Do you still think that? This came from a 1950s Riva Sport]

yes indeed i do. have here an acier diamant arm marked with the shooting star/comet logo. arm is a higher quality model than the one in your photo. the arm's corners are chamfered/grooved and it is quite slender. it is pretty much moot in case of the machine under discussion since acier diamant is belgian.

here is the logo on another arm, not mine:

https://forum.tontonvelo.com/download...3494&mode=view

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Old 12-22-15, 10:47 PM
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juvela and Salubrious,

I much appreciate your thoughts and leads and I am following through on investigating them. I know answers will come slowly, if at all. I will look into Atom pedal dust caps, other brands, etc. I've seen Lyotard catalog pictures matching the style of my LHS pedal, but the details of the plates ends don't match, so I wonder if they were copies.

juvela, no markings whatsoever on the rim strip, much like many other parts on this bike. It is a simple, overlapped strip of hole-punched rubber.
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Old 12-23-15, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela

yes indeed i do. have here an acier diamant arm marked with the shooting star/comet logo. arm is a higher quality model than the one in your photo. the arm's corners are chamfered/grooved and it is quite slender. it is pretty much moot in case of the machine under discussion since acier diamant is belgian.

here is the logo on another arm, not mine:

https://forum.tontonvelo.com/download...3494&mode=view
Sweet. Until I encountered the Riva Sport, I'd not seen the brand before. The Riva Sport is a 3-speed BTW, using a Brampton IGH. Its frame though is clearly hand-made and quite light.
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Old 12-23-15, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Salubrious
Sweet. Until I encountered the Riva Sport, I'd not seen the brand before. The Riva Sport is a 3-speed BTW, using a Brampton IGH. Its frame though is clearly hand-made and quite light.
Hello Again Salubrious,

Have never seen any model names or numbers for Acier Diamant products. Perhaps another reader knows of this information... The examples have had the opportunity to see in person have all been three-arm but five-pin models were produced as well. Here is one listed at VB:




VeloBase.com - Component: Diamant Acier

A big thank you to member Munny.

Similar five-pin set is presently on ebay.fr:



Apologies to 73StellaSX76 for taking the thread down a bit of a side road.

"We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming."
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Old 01-13-16, 05:52 PM
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Hello Again 73StellaSX76,

Have there been any additional developments with this project?

Has reassembly as yet commenced?

All best wishes with it!
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Old 01-13-16, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
Hello Again 73StellaSX76,

Have there been any additional developments with this project?

Has reassembly as yet commenced?

All best wishes with it!
Hey, thanks for asking.

The bike is still in the stand. What with the holidays and ongoing maintenance of my everyday bikes I haven't had much time to spend on this one. And once I got the freewheel off I saw how mangled the spokes are. Sometime in the past the chain had been thrown inside the freewheel and did quite a number on the spokes. Even the hub flange got dented in numerous places. I've wanted to keep this bike as original as possible, so this has me stymied. I can leave it as is and not pedal hard, replace with modern stainless spokes, or look around for some old stock unplated db spokes to replace the mangled ones. I'm still undecided and when that happens to me I tend to go looking for other projects.

Here is a shot of the mangled spokes, some are gouged pretty thin:


This hub, like the front hub, is stamped with the same "RMM" label. An interesting detail that I haven't seen before is the drive side (ds) cone has no wrench flats. And the ds of the axle has a pair of crimps to which the ds cone tightens down to. There is also a tooth washer and lock nut. I'll have to figure out the order of setting the bearings later. The cones are pitted but the hub races look OK.
For reference:
The spokes are approx. 280mm long, this is a 650b wheel.
The hub uses 9 x .250" ball bearings per side.
This rear axle has 9.5mm dia x ? pitch threads and is 162mm long.


Other than that I've got the headlamp and front fender cleaned up (but no polishing) and the front cam-driven brakes sorted, they actually feel like they could work pretty well.

I appreciate the interest,
Alex
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Old 01-14-16, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Flog00
So Alex owns a Singer bike which is not an Alex Singer. Cool
It's Alex's Singer, not an Alex Singer.

SP
OC, OR
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Old 01-14-16, 11:06 AM
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Ah, now I get it! And my 50 post's freedom.
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Old 01-17-16, 05:02 PM
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Hello Alex, who is not Monsieur Singer,

Thanks very much for this update.

Me deux centimes worth: vote for rebuilding both wheels with NOS spokes and possibly new rims. Damage to hub flange appears quite minor; could either be dressed or ignored at your option.

Have encountered a hub bearing assembly similar to this before where the drive side cone lacks spanner flats. Believe some manufacturers on the other side of the Solent built in this manner as well...

As a metals man like yourself already knows the hub cones could be hard chromed and then reground if you wished to reuse them. Alternately, one could search for compatible replacements. From the photo the cones appear to have the same contour as Normandy Sport and Atom.

Thank you again for this installment.

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Old 01-18-16, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
Me deux centimes worth: vote for rebuilding both wheels with NOS spokes and possibly new rims. Damage to hub flange appears quite minor; could either be dressed or ignored at your option.
I appreciate your vote but I'm going to just replace the mangled spokes and keep using the rims. I found some used, plain, straight gauge, 282 mm spokes which won't perfectly match the originals, but they will look the part if not examined too closely. I will disassemble the wheels, clean up the parts to some degree and reassemble them. I'm not concerned at all about the dents in the flange, just commenting my surprise that the chain could inflict such damage.

Originally Posted by juvela
As a metals man like yourself already knows the hub cones could be hard chromed and then reground if you wished to reuse them. Alternately, one could search for compatible replacements. From the photo the cones appear to have the same contour as Normandy Sport and Atom.
I'm going to try either lathe turning the cone bearing tracks with a carbide bit or regrinding, followed by a good polish. Depending on how much is removed I may need a thin shim to maintain positions. This fix should be sufficient for the limited use I anticipate for this bike; it will last years.

juvela, As always, I do appreciate your review and comments. I'll post some pictures as the wheels start to turn.
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Old 01-19-16, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 73StellaSX76



I'm going to try either lathe turning the cone bearing tracks with a carbide bit or regrinding, followed by a good polish. Depending on how much is removed I may need a thin shim to maintain positions. This fix should be sufficient for the limited use I anticipate for this bike; it will last years.

juvela, As always, I do appreciate your review and comments. I'll post some pictures as the wheels start to turn.
cones are pitted because hardening has been worn through. in turning, polishing etc you will just be working unhardened metal.

maillard sport/atom cones had this black oxide finish up through the early seventies when they changed to a plated finish. the quality control and cutting of the threads was better in the black oxide period. Verktyg has made detailed posts regarding the quality control/manufacturing tolerances of maillard axle parts.

if it were me i would fit new cones but then i certainly do not know metals like you do!

love the manner in which you are proceeding with this. lots of careful thought...

will be looking forward to next update.
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