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1940s/50s Singer Grand Sport

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1940s/50s Singer Grand Sport

Old 01-19-16, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
wrt the marking on the hub barrel -

was thinking that the m and m could stand for maurice maillard, founder of maillard/atom/normandy, but that does not explain the r.

checked at tonton and there were not hits for "rmm" nor for "r.m.m."

wonder if norris would know...

...
I just discovered this interesting thread today.

I don't know what RMM means but these hubs were made by the Etablissements Perrin, one of the small companies gathered in the Saint-Etienne area where the bicycle industry was gathered :



In 1955, Perrin and Courson, the Exceltoo hubs builder, joined together and became the Ets Perrin et Courson réunis (not a lot of communication teams at that time ) :



I don't know much about the LPF cranks but if i'd ever find some information, I'll let you know.
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Old 01-19-16, 06:13 PM
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Thanks very much for this outstanding information Filochard!

Yet another mystery sorted.
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Old 01-19-16, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Filochard
I just discovered this interesting thread today.

I don't know what RMM means but these hubs were made by the Etablissements Perrin, one of the small companies gathered in the Saint-Etienne area where the bicycle industry was gathered :



In 1955, Perrin and Courson, the Exceltoo hubs builder, joined together and became the Ets Perrin et Courson réunis (not a lot of communication teams at that time ) :



I don't know much about the LPF cranks but if i'd ever find some information, I'll let you know.
Merci beaucoup, Filochard! That is a very similar logo, maybe different only in printed vs. stamped formats. I very much appreciate the reference and will start to research "Etablissements Perrin". I know my Singer is from Saint-Etienne, so this is very reasonable. Healthy or not, I am getting addicted to learning more about this bicycle.
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Old 01-19-16, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
i certainly do not know metals like you do!
I wouldn't ascribe too much expertise to me, as I don't have too much of it! But I would guess depending on how they do the hardening that the case harden is around 0.5 to 1.0 mm thick. I don't think the pitting is much deeper than 0.05 mm. I think the pitting was due to either infiltration of dirt or water based corrosion attacking impurities in the metal. Is pitting commonly known to be caused by wearing through the hardened layer? Maybe due to lack of lubrication?

But thinking about this reminded me of a practice I read about long ago whereby lapping compound was used to freshen up bearing tracks. I'll find a "sacrificial" cheap hub with similarly spaced races and load it with sacrificial ball bearings and these cones, and try lapping them smooth. I'll rig up a motor or power drill to spin the axle. It would be low risk as it would take forever to remove any appreciable amount of material. A thorough clean up and inspection would tell me if I'm on the right track.

All else fails, I can track down some compatible replacement cones. I'm not quite ready to give up yet, just got started!
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Old 01-20-16, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 73StellaSX76
I wouldn't ascribe too much expertise to me, as I don't have too much of it! But I would guess depending on how they do the hardening that the case harden is around 0.5 to 1.0 mm thick. I don't think the pitting is much deeper than 0.05 mm. I think the pitting was due to either infiltration of dirt or water based corrosion attacking impurities in the metal. Is pitting commonly known to be caused by wearing through the hardened layer? Maybe due to lack of lubrication?


But thinking about this reminded me of a practice I read about long ago whereby lapping compound was used to freshen up bearing tracks. I'll find a "sacrificial" cheap hub with similarly spaced races and load it with sacrificial ball bearings and these cones, and try lapping them smooth. I'll rig up a motor or power drill to spin the axle. It would be low risk as it would take forever to remove any appreciable amount of material. A thorough clean up and inspection would tell me if I'm on the right track.

All else fails, I can track down some compatible replacement cones. I'm not quite ready to give up yet, just got started!
wrt pitting would think it due to absence of lubrication as you suggest, often combined with intrusion of foreign matter and/or bits of plating in the case of plated parts which were not rectified post plating. plating of course a non-issue here since we are dealing with black oxide finish.

yes, the lapping compound is an old technique. iirc there are numerous recipes for the procedure as to what compound to use and how long to run it. subject came up in a thread the forum had last year and one poster pointed out a downside but do not recall the details.

-----

au retour aux les rayons et jantes - it occurred to me that when you work with the wheels you may encounter frozen/seized nipples. if one continues to turn these it often results in a broken spoke. before starting it might be good to apply some of your favourite rust dissolver first and let it sit for a time...
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Old 02-23-16, 11:17 PM
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I'm back...

I got the rear wheel disassembled. Amazing that all of the spoke nipples released with only moderate effort. On disassembly of the hub both cones showed pitting. This was the worst of the two:



I ground a radius on a carbide lathe bit and was able to turn the seat smooth. I'm pretty sure I stayed in the hardened surface, but time will tell if it breaks through. I polished the surface with a fine lapping compound. I'm sure the contact line is shifted a bit but the OLD did not change much. I considered lapping the cones with sacrificial bearings but after polishing the action felt good enough so I went with it. This is the same cone.



The hub feels smooth, adjusted to no catches and no play. Not Campy smooth but better than some I've felt. The hub had one of those leather strap polishers on it; that had worn through the plating long ago. I did a minimum job of derusting, I did not particularly want it looking brand new.



The loose hub allowed a closer view of the RMM stamping so I took a shot.



Next up some spoke reconditioning.
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Old 02-23-16, 11:25 PM
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Comme c'est beau!
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Old 02-26-16, 02:31 PM
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Hello Again Machinist Alex

Now that hubs squared away how does gear block look/feel; will it be directly reusable or will it require first some manner of attentions?

https://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...3&d=1447994896

wrt lathe-turned cogs - "now those were the days!"

Did some digging a few weeks back on the pedals. Found two models of Lyotard with a tread similar to that seen on the bicycle's left pedal. Unfortunately, their plates and/or barrels were different. Also found one or two pedals with plates which look like those of the left pedal but the remainder was dissimilar.

Found examples with the same barrel or plates as seen on the right pedal but alas none which were a full match.

For readers wishing to identify old pedals the Speedplay museum is a marvelous resource:

SPEEDPLAY : HIGH PERFORMANCE PEDALS

Love following the marvelous job you are doing with this mount.
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Old 02-27-16, 07:21 PM
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The gearblock/freewheel looks and feels fine. The cogs have very minimal wear and the pawl clicks are sharp and positive. It should work fine. Regarding the cogs being lathe cut I was just surprised that any method other than stamping from sheet stock would have been used in manufacture.

I've been working on reconditioning the mangled spokes from the drive side. The ones I was thinking of using for replacements just would stick out too much. I may come to regret it but I'm going to rebuild with the old ones. I've straightened the bends and hammered back most of the gouges to round out the shape. Most of the mangling was in the larger diameter non-butted end portion, so weakening should be minimal. Just a seat of the pants feel of the material it seems they used much more ductile material in these spokes than would be common in modern spoke examples.

Here is a close up shot of a spoke head as referenced earlier in this thread. It looks more like a spoked wheel than the star shape shown in the referenced website pictures.



Thanks for your ongoing interest in this project. Steel rim cleanup next.
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Old 02-27-16, 10:47 PM
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Bingo!

Originally Posted by juvela

Did some digging a few weeks back on the pedals. Found two models of Lyotard with a tread similar to that seen on the bicycle's left pedal. Unfortunately, their plates and/or barrels were different. Also found one or two pedals with plates which look like those of the left pedal but the remainder was dissimilar.

Found examples with the same barrel or plates as seen on the right pedal but alas none which were a full match.

For readers wishing to identify old pedals the Speedplay museum is a marvelous resource:

SPEEDPLAY : HIGH PERFORMANCE PEDALS

The RHS pedal seems to match the appearance of a pair currently listed on ebay. They are identified as Ideale Cyclotouriste pedals. The end caps on the ebay pair appear to be labeled Ideale. Mine has no such markings though. I'm not sure if this or the LHS pedal (or even another type) were the original equipment.

Here is a picture of the ebay pair.


I hope it is OK to post the link here:
Ideale C P Steel Pedals w Platform 60 x 100mm France 50 60's Used | eBay
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Old 07-24-16, 10:28 AM
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Rim similar to those on your bicycle fitted to an Oscar Egg machine:



Part of this machine -

Oscar Egg bike - Chip Duckett
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Old 07-24-16, 12:11 PM
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Here is another bike of a similar period with those wheels. I am sure [MENTION=333224]juvela[/MENTION] will like this.

I have had my eyes on some time but have too many bikes. Stars would have to come in line. It's a beauty though and may help in some way. Parts list on ad and great pics.

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/la...690417653.html
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Old 07-24-16, 12:20 PM
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Thanks for sharing this beauty.

Have a nearby cycling friend with one of these in his collection. It is similar in concept and time; a large framed machine sporting a frock of scarlet. Sorry, no imagini.

We commence to drift a bit OT here; hope it be not too rude to a certain Stella rider...

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Old 02-14-18, 03:16 PM
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-----

As regards pedal identification.

If I understand correctly we have one down and one to go.

In the course of a search the other day over at Tonton came upon this Brampton (of France) advert from 1926. Had not known they produced pedals. Knew them only for drive chains.

May be another marque to explore...
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Old 02-15-18, 11:29 AM
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That's go to be confusing! Brampton of England made pedals too!

VeloBase.com - Component: Brampton B8
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Old 10-21-19, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 73StellaSX76
The gearblock/freewheel looks and feels fine. The cogs have very minimal wear and the pawl clicks are sharp and positive. It should work fine. Regarding the cogs being lathe cut I was just surprised that any method other than stamping from sheet stock would have been used in manufacture.

I've been working on reconditioning the mangled spokes from the drive side. The ones I was thinking of using for replacements just would stick out too much. I may come to regret it but I'm going to rebuild with the old ones. I've straightened the bends and hammered back most of the gouges to round out the shape. Most of the mangling was in the larger diameter non-butted end portion, so weakening should be minimal. Just a seat of the pants feel of the material it seems they used much more ductile material in these spokes than would be common in modern spoke examples.

Here is a close up shot of a spoke head as referenced earlier in this thread. It looks more like a spoked wheel than the star shape shown in the referenced website pictures.



Thanks for your ongoing interest in this project. Steel rim cleanup next.
-----

I recalled that we were unable to locate an exact match for this spoke head symbol at the directory.

Today in the course of web wander chanced upon a machine whose spokes exhibit it as well.

The beastie is a De Dion-Bouton from the early 1950's - so close in time to your Singer.

cycle and spoke head -




Any new developments with the project?

-----
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Old 10-21-19, 06:26 PM
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I would say these and the pattern on my spoke heads are an exact match to the ones loosely identified by an "eight point star" about halfway down the Spoke Identification Chart that you provided a while ago. Unfortunately, the spoke manufacturer is unknown. The DeDion-Bouton machine you show is so close in character to mine, excepting it has drop bars, that I wonder if they have some common roots.
Chart link:
Spoke Head Identification Chart

No other progress on this project. The bike is taken out periodically on fun rides but mostly I'm riding the "moderns" more often these days. I do think time-to-time about picking up some aluminum rimmed wheels for the Singer to make the rides more practical. I'd need to do a mod on the new rear hub as I think it needs an OLD less than 120, but I can figure that out.

Thanks for the interest!
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Old 10-21-19, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 73StellaSX76
I would say these and the pattern on my spoke heads are an exact match to the ones loosely identified by an "eight point star" about halfway down the Spoke Identification Chart that you provided a while ago. Unfortunately, the spoke manufacturer is unknown. The DeDion-Bouton machine you show is so close in character to mine, excepting it has drop bars, that I wonder if they have some common roots.
Chart link:
Spoke Head Identification Chart

No other progress on this project. The bike is taken out periodically on fun rides but mostly I'm riding the "moderns" more often these days. I do think time-to-time about picking up some aluminum rimmed wheels for the Singer to make the rides more practical. I'd need to do a mod on the new rear hub as I think it needs an OLD less than 120, but I can figure that out.

Thanks for the interest!
How bout a picture of the finished velo?
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Old 10-21-19, 09:42 PM
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Not such a great shot but the best one I have on hand. Taken at a playground in Golden Gate Park. It has new tires & tubes, brake pads, pump, cables & housings, and sorta matching saddle bags. Other than a good clean and polish I did not restore the painted finishes, etc. so it does not look markedly different than the "before" shots of a few years back.

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Old 10-21-19, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 73StellaSX76
Not such a great shot but the best one I have on hand. Taken at a playground in Golden Gate Park. It has new tires & tubes, brake pads, pump, cables & housings, and sorta matching saddle bags. Other than a good clean and polish I did not restore the painted finishes, etc. so it does not look markedly different than the "before" shots of a few years back.

Beautiful! @73StellaSX76 what tires are you running?
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Old 10-21-19, 10:15 PM
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Tires are Panaracer Col de la Vie 650B 26 x 1 1/2 (40-584)
I don't remember where I found them.
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Old 10-22-19, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 73StellaSX76
... The bb spindle is 136mm long, symmetric, and along with the adjustable cup and the single 48T chain ring, are all stamped "RFG" within an oval. No apparent date codes on any of these. What was it with French manufacturers mostly using three letter company names back then anyhow?
I know, commenting on an old old post, but - RFG is Roulement Francais Guaranti, maker of hubs, quick release skewers, headsets - and chainrings and bottom brackets. Different company than RGF, maker of bottom brackets and lugs. My c.1972 Liberia has a set of RFG hubs (which are cruder-looking than Normandy Sports but run a touch smoother), a bottom bracket (ball bearing retainers are black Delrin!) and headset. All good quality stuff, and I have a memory of there being some sort of tie-in between RFG and Maxicar, but that may well be a misread piece of legend. They were based in St. Etienne, I think.

Gauthier saddles were also used a good bit by Liberia (a regional builder in Grenoble).

This is a truly lovely bike!
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Old 10-22-19, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by rustystrings61
All good quality stuff, and I have a memory of there being some sort of tie-in between RFG and Maxicar, but that may well be a misread piece of legend. They were based in St. Etienne, I think.
RFG merged with Maxi-car in the early 60s I believe. Most Maxi-cars hubs through the decades came OEM with RFG-branded QR skewers. I have a pair of Maxi-car hubs at home with the RFG skewers, probably early 80s, which have one of the best chroming jobs I've seen on a skewer.

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Old 10-22-19, 07:24 PM
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Thanks to both of you for the further information.
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Old 05-30-23, 09:43 PM
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-----

chanced this day upon another example of the marque and thought to glue it into the textilium since they seem to be so few and far between...

it wears the same headplate as the subject machine and its frame is constructed with the same NERVEX 45/159 lug pattern

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only rear wheel and mech appear to be missing

many fittings line up with those of subject cycle such as the Jeay brake set

chainset and hub may be a match as well but alas no detail imagery of them

hand grips appear to be Felt brand

cycle presently listed for sale upon the waves of ebay France

-----
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