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up-standing cable hanger

Old 10-13-15, 02:23 PM
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up-standing cable hanger

I'm told that this cable hanger can solve the fork shuddering problem on a bike with cantilever brakes. My bike has it bad. My front axle shudders back and forth about an inch, a few times a second, when I apply the brakes moderately or hard.

But I have a dynamo light mounted to the fork crown, and if this hanger is too short, it will interfere. Does anyone know how tall it is?

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Old 10-13-15, 02:42 PM
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That hanger lacks the safety shelf that will catch the transverse cable in the event of main cable breakage or of a dislodged cable housing from stop (yours isn't slotted so that can't happen).


The Origin-8 hanger has no adjuster, is slotted, has the safety shelf and has an overall height of 63mm above the bolt center. I used it on my '87 Jamis Dakar and it did get rid of most of the shudder (definitely prevented the shudder from increasing to such a magnitude as to have to ease up on the braking).

It seems to me that the mounting bolt on these "hangers" needs to be kept relatively tight, since they are not really hangers as much as columns, structurally speaking.

I once rode an Alan CX bike with alloy 1" threaded steerer, and the severe shudder threatened to snap the fork right off by my estimation. Sure enough, it had a cable housing stop hanger at the upper end of the headset.

Scaling off of the 6mm bolt, the overall height of your pictured "hanger" appears to be 85mm above bolt centerline.

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Old 10-13-15, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
I'm told that this cable hanger can solve the fork shuddering problem on a bike with cantilever brakes. My bike has it bad. My front axle shudders back and forth about an inch, a few times a second, when I apply the brakes moderately or hard.

But I have a dynamo light mounted to the fork crown, and if this hanger is too short, it will interfere. Does anyone know how tall it is?
noglider, I used a similar hanger on a bike that I have since sold. As far as I remember it was nearly 6cm tall.
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Old 10-13-15, 02:56 PM
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Thanks, @dweenk! I suspect that will work. I'll look at the bike before I buy.

And thank you, too, [MENTION=185430]dddd[/MENTION].
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Old 10-13-15, 04:55 PM
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I would say the 65 mm measurement overstates it, although that might be something close to an overall measurement.

I have one of these on the workbench and just measured it. From the mounting bolt center to the bottom of where the adjuster sits, it's 50 mm.
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Old 10-13-15, 06:16 PM
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May I be so bold as to suggest that you need to spend some time working at a good brake adjustment for angle and position the rim surface?! Well adusted cantilevers should not induce a shuddering effect under braking load. As well as replacing your cable hanger for something more robust, I would think that a close look at your rims' braking surfaces and your brake pads would be in order. Is your head set properly adjusted? The cable hanger should be one of the last things to cause a shudder...
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Old 10-13-15, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by xlbs
The cable hanger should be one of the last things to cause a shudder...
It's not that the cable hanger causes the shudder. Sometimes the shudder is caused by a flexible steerer. The crown mounted cable hanger takes the steerer out of the equation.

As for dynamo light, I had good luck moving it to a brake post using a homemade bracket and a Nitto bolt used for mounting racks onto canti posts,
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Old 10-13-15, 06:42 PM
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have you tried a wheel you know is good?

i had a lot of shudder when braking on one bike that forced me to build a new wheel.
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Old 10-13-15, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MetinUz
It's not that the cable hanger causes the shudder. Sometimes the shudder is caused by a flexible steerer. The crown mounted cable hanger takes the steerer out of the equation.
+1
I built a Soma Doublecross in the largest size available with stem-mounted hanger. The headtube was so long that I only needed to cut about 1cm from the steerer when I built it. Coming down steep grades with hairpin turns in between, on braking I could see the front axle bouncing fore and aft, and it was nearly impossible to modulate the brakes; They just wanted to grab, and try to throw me over the bars.

A fork-crown-mounted brake hanger solved the problem.
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Old 10-14-15, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by due ruote
I would say the 65 mm measurement overstates it, although that might be something close to an overall measurement.

I have one of these on the workbench and just measured it. From the mounting bolt center to the bottom of where the adjuster sits, it's 50 mm.

I believe you mis-read my post.

The 65mm I mentioned first, which is the height of my Origin-8 "cable hanger", is not the height of the not the height of the pictured hanger.

As for the Overall height of the pictured hanger, I stated:

"Scaling off of the 6mm bolt, the overall height of your pictured "hanger" appears to be 85mm above bolt centerline."


A fork-shudder problem need not be the result of any rim irregularity. Simply applying the brakes on a normal road surface can be enough to excite the resonance, which is then amplified by the steerer flex.
But certainly adding generous toe-in to the pads can greatly reduce shudder, though at the expense of uneven pad wear, soft-feeling brakes and the never-ending work in maintaining the radical toe-in.
Bike manufacturers addressed this and other problems when they adopted 1-1-8" steerers but kept the top-side hangers in many cases.

They added a lot of weight to forks over the years, so seemed to have deemed any fork flex to be a bad thing!
For a lighter rider to be riding on these 2+pound forks is a lesson in poor ride quality, let me tell you.
Sadly, there are still a lot of framesets being sold with these super-heavy, unyielding forks, perhaps using the same tubing as the ones that now have disc mounts.

So be sure to check out the fork on any of these "bargain" frames before purchase. For that matter, weight the whole thing too.
Some of today's popular steel frames are heavier and far more un-yielding than even the gas-pipe frames of the old days, despite having fancy tubing stickers with names like "Prestige"!
It is in part the result of today's frames being expected to handle abuse from the occasional 250+ pound rider, and also of the downgrading of the material spec of the familiar-sounding tubing, which is a rip-off tantamount to false advertising imo.
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Old 10-14-15, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dddd
I believe you mis-read my post.

The 65mm I mentioned first, which is the height of my Origin-8 "cable hanger", is not the height of the not the height of the pictured hanger.

As for the Overall height of the pictured hanger, I stated:

"Scaling off of the 6mm bolt, the overall height of your pictured "hanger" appears to be 85mm above bolt centerline."

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to step on any toes. My main point was to give the OP the actual measurement of the unit he showed, and do so in a timely way so he didn't order something he couldn't use. I probably could have left your post out of it altogether.
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Old 10-14-15, 10:54 AM
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1. These are awesome. Give it a try. The will completely eliminate the problem.

2. If he had a dynamo light there is a strong possibility he has fender negating the need for a cross over cable catcher

3. If using shimano split cable hanger system the cross over catcher is not a concern.

4. a snapped brake cable is a rare even and anyone on this forum is probably hyper aware of the condition of their bicycle so need not sorry about it.

5. The problem increases on larger frames.

6. You can adjust and try different components till the cows come home and you may will be able to reduce or increase the issue, but the problem is usually the fork and particularly the flex in the steerer and you probably do not want to replace the fork. The crown mounted cable stop is an elegant and inexpensive solution.
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Old 10-14-15, 11:46 AM
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Thanks everyone. Yes, I have fenders, so good point about not needing the cable catcher. I haven't measured it yet, but I'm optimistic.

The frame is a 55cm size, so not big, but the problem is pretty bad.

[MENTION=417190]xlbs[/MENTION], thank you, but the rim is clean, and the brakes are well adjusted. I'm good at maintaining bikes. I even tried some crappy old Dia Compe pads to see if less friction helped the problem, and it didn't.

[MENTION=185430]dddd[/MENTION], thanks for all that info. Very interesting.
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Old 10-14-15, 12:20 PM
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Tom, where is your cable stop now? If it's on the stem itself, that can exacerbate the problem.
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Old 10-14-15, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by xlbs
May I be so bold as to suggest that you need to spend some time working at a good brake adjustment for angle and position the rim surface?! Well adusted cantilevers should not induce a shuddering effect under braking load. As well as replacing your cable hanger for something more robust, I would think that a close look at your rims' braking surfaces and your brake pads would be in order. Is your head set properly adjusted? The cable hanger should be one of the last things to cause a shudder...
This Lennard Zinn column explains the problem. As the fork flexes under braking, it pulls harder on the brake cable, increasing the braking force.
... Problem is, the brake cable is fixed at one end at the brake caliper and at the other end at the cable stop above the headset (as you can see in my case, at a cable hanger attached to a bolt on the stem face plate).

Think “bow and arrow” and imagine the fork between the cantilever bosses and the top of the headset is like the bow, and the cable is like the string. As the fork flexes back due to braking, the cable tightens like the string in the bow.
...
Eventually, something has to give: Either the tire must slip on the ground, the rider must go over the handlebars, or the pads must break free from the rim. It is the latter that creates the shudder, the pads bind and release, bind and release, each time allowing the fork to flex back and forth and the tire to roll and stop, roll and stop. This is why the problem goes away in mud and wet sand, because the pad can break free smoothly. It is also why smaller pads with more toe-in help.
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Old 10-14-15, 03:03 PM
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@ThermionicScott, it's on a traditional cable hanger in the headset stack.

Good article, @rm -rf. I wonder why old fashioned center pull brakes don't suffer as much.

In a sense, I should have left well enough alone. I didn't have this problem with the original brakes. I just had to upgrade to those fancy 720 or whatever brakes.

Do you think there's a chance the fork could fatigue if one were to allow it to shudder frequently for several years?

My bike, a 1995-ish Bianchi Volpe:

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Old 10-14-15, 05:12 PM
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Sometimes, you gotta try new things.
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Originally Posted by noglider
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Old 10-14-15, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
Do you think there's a chance the fork could fatigue if one were to allow it to shudder frequently for several years?
In my case, descending a 14% grade (Flagstaff Mt) with 205 lbs of bike+rider, watching that fork shudder like that was too scary to find out. What I did while waiting for the crown-mounted hanger to arrive, was:
1. Avoid using the bike on grades like that.
2. Swap the Kool-Stop salmon pads for the original black Shimano pads, (on the front),
since the mediocre Shimano pads didn't have as much grip as the Kool-Stops, they shuddered less.
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