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-   -   Raleigh Carlton Competition (Colorway: Copper) (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1035326-raleigh-carlton-competition-colorway-copper.html)

RaleighRonson 10-21-15 11:45 PM

11 Attachment(s)
There are a few components made in France.
Sorry for the wrong information about the saddle. Its an ideale type record.
The rims are build in the normandyhttp://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483806http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483807http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483808http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483809http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483810http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483811http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483812http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483813http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483814http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483815http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=483816

gugie 10-22-15 12:21 PM

This is a Frankenbike.

The aged and faded decal says it's a Competition, not a Competition G.S. That would put it in the early 70's. Black was the standard color then. The dropout is a Campy 1010 type. Internationals used them. If we are to believe it is a Competition (not a G.S.), then it would use Huret dropouts, not Campy, correct?

The serial number starts with WD73... - Worksop built, March, the "7" indicates 1977, the rest of the digits are unit # in the production run (reference http://www.theheadbadge.com/)

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...p;d=1445346500http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...p;d=1445492498

Bottom line, I'm not sure what you've got there. I suspect the paint is not original.

lord_athlon 10-22-15 01:20 PM

Everything on this matches my Clubman, minus the dropouts and lack of brazeons. I suspect this is a UK market bike, with the wrong decals.

rhm 10-22-15 05:44 PM

Before I'll believe any of the above, I'll want to see a Raleigh catalog or brochure for the German market from the mid to late 1970's. This is clearly not a bike we ever saw in the US. Had anyone ever seen that crank before?

USAZorro 10-22-15 08:26 PM

I'm not holding my breath on that catalog, but I am inclined to think that rhm is correct about it not being the same as the US or British market models. I'd still like to know the seat post size (whether 27.2 or 26.8). I hazard a guess that the brake levers are not original, possibly not the front derailleur and possibly not the crankset. I do believe I have seen the style crankset before. I'd start by looking in the 1980's catalogues.

I am still stunned that there's no rear brake bridge stop (the ubiquitous arc). Maybe it was removed? Any signs of metal being removed on the upper seat stays?

edit - I see what appears to be "butted" on the Reynolds sticker, so I'd presume the seatpost is 27.2 (which shoots down the SuperCourse speculation).

treebound 10-22-15 08:59 PM

The Raleigh Competition Carlton that I had came with Suntour components, which were factory spec for it's model year based upon a Raleigh catalog that I had found online. Good thing I found that catalog/brochure too because the guy I sold it to was convinced that it was supposed to have a Campy group on it like a different model year had. Raleigh's varied a bit over the years. I miss that bike sometimes even though it was a size or two too tall, even so I still put thousands of miles on it.

The OP's bike looks like it will be a nice rider once it is lubed and tuned up.

79pmooney 10-22-15 09:40 PM

I picked up a Carlton Competition last winter. Black, bridge for centerpull, sloping crown, 531 stickers on frame and fork that were made '73 and earlier, serial #A (or H) 2913. Has braze-ons for rear brake on right underside. Huret dropouts with a rear derailleur stop that doesn't work with modern derailleurs. 27.0 seatpost. (I don't get it but there is no way a 27.2 will go in and you cannot tighten the bolt enough with a 26.8.)

Questions? What does G.S. mean? What are the BB threads?

Ben

KonAaron Snake 10-22-15 09:47 PM


Originally Posted by 79pmooney (Post 18263631)
I picked up a Carlton Competition last winter. Black, bridge for centerpull, sloping crown, 531 stickers on frame and fork that were made '73 and earlier, serial #A (or H) 2913. Has braze-ons for rear brake on right underside. Huret dropouts with a rear derailleur stop that doesn't work with modern derailleurs. 27.0 seatpost. (I don't get it but there is no way a 27.2 will go in and you cannot tighten the bolt enough with a 26.8.)

Questions? What does G.S. mean? What are the BB threads?

Ben

G.S. = gran sport (campagnolo gran sport crank, derailleurs, post and pedals).

gugie 10-22-15 09:55 PM


Originally Posted by USAZorro (Post 18263489)
edit - I see what appears to be "butted" on the Reynolds sticker, so I'd presume the seatpost is 27.2 (which shoots down the SuperCourse speculation).

The Campy rear dropouts mean it ain't a Super Course.

gugie 10-22-15 10:00 PM

I think we should ignore the components. Parts can be swapped out. The frame could have been painted decades ago and still have a patina. Focus on the bottom bracket serial number, the lugs, the fork crown, the brazed bits.

And it still doesn't make any sense to me.

TimmyT 10-23-15 06:33 AM


Originally Posted by gugie (Post 18262261)
This is a Frankenbike.

The dropout is a Campy 1010 type. Internationals used them. If we are to believe it is a Competition (not a G.S.), then it would use Huret dropouts, not Campy, correct?

I suspect the paint is not original.

It's a typical sort of Raleigh Frankenbike. It left the factory in a very similar form. I think the paint is original.

Competitions only had Huret dropouts in 1973 and part of 1974. Others used included Zeus (actually made by Reynolds for Zeus), SunTour, Campagnolo. There are probably others, too.

The only part I suspect as non original is the front derailleur. Everything else looks about right for 1977.
The Raleigh branded cranksets in the US that I have seen were SR Apex. This is a nicer model.

Even if you did have a German catalog, it might not be in it, so even that might not be conclusive.

rhm 10-23-15 10:12 AM

The crank appears to be a Raleigh branded, forged, Campy copy. I assume 144 bcd rings, and I assume it's made by Sugino, or perhaps SR. Doesn't matter. What does matter is: who on this forum has ever seen this crank before? I have not. I suggest those who have do not live in the US.

riusx 05-19-16 03:24 AM

I also oppened a thread in wich i added a Raleigh that looks like this. The only difference that I see is the rear dropout that has a fender screw hole. Also the Competition decal is missing maybe it was cleared or it wasn't from the beginning. Also because it was converted to a single speed you can't tell nothing about the euquipping. This one is from Romania maybe it was brought from Germany.

cqlink 11-03-18 12:53 PM


Originally Posted by RaleighRonson (Post 18257998)
Hi everyone!

Wow thank you for all your great replies!

In the evening I will send you more picture of my raleigh.

I don't think it's a random mixture of different components just because there was a lazy framebuilder :p

To proof that, i've found such the same raleigh on ebay. - maybe it's interesting for all of you.

vintage altes Raleigh Carlton Rennrad 70er/80er Jahre braun 12-Gang | eBay

But I don't leave you guys hanging the link is only to bridge the time until evening

Best regards

did you ever find out more about that Competition you have? I just bought my second one. More brown the copper with 531 tubing .This is likely a Euro model. I can't find this color anywhere in the US.
Cheers
Mark

JaccoW 11-04-18 02:29 PM


Originally Posted by cqlink (Post 20646546)
did you ever find out more about that Competition you have? I just bought my second one. More brown the copper with 531 tubing .This is likely a Euro model. I can't find this color anywhere in the US.
Cheers
Mark

Let's add some pictures to that riddle. :D
http://i.imgur.com/z2N21tf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yAm7AGQ.jpg

cqlink 04-16-19 07:54 PM

Bump

merziac 04-16-19 11:36 PM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 18263124)
Before I'll believe any of the above, I'll want to see a Raleigh catalog or brochure for the German market from the mid to late 1970's. This is clearly not a bike we ever saw in the US. Had anyone ever seen that crank before?

Zombie alert!

No I have not seen this crank, as we know the ones from the SC's are swaged. I have always liked them aside from that. Silly as it would be, if I could find one of these, I might just put it on a Pro for fun.

The flutes in the spider do not look like Sugino to me, of course it still could be. ;)

non-fixie 04-17-19 11:26 AM

BITD, the Raleigh line-up for the European market was totally different from the stateside offerings, so it's no use comparing the two. What might look like a total frankenbike to US citizens may have been fully standard for Germany or Holland.

Just my 2 eurocents.

rhm 04-17-19 12:32 PM


Originally Posted by non-fixie (Post 20888824)
BITD, the Raleigh line-up for the European market was totally different from the stateside offerings, so it's no use comparing the two. What might look like a total frankenbike to US citizens may have been fully standard for Germany or Holland.

Just my 2 eurocents.

That's the point I was trying to make in my assorted posts above. It was pointed out that components can be changed, and that is true. But the components are Raleigh-branded OEM stuff that one way or another came on a Raleigh. The Raleigh-branded seat post and crank are components we've never seen in the US. So whereas it would be possible to get some random Raleigh frame and put random other parts on it, the Raleigh-branded OEM parts are not available in the US and never were. They came on a Raleigh, and judging by the quality of the crank, they came on a pretty good one. This was a pretty good one. frame quality consistent with the components. So I see no reason to think anything was changed.

non-fixie 04-17-19 03:19 PM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 20888922)
That's the point I was trying to make in my assorted posts above. It was pointed out that components can be changed, and that is true. But the components are Raleigh-branded OEM stuff that one way or another came on a Raleigh. The Raleigh-branded seat post and crank are components we've never seen in the US. So whereas it would be possible to get some random Raleigh frame and put random other parts on it, the Raleigh-branded OEM parts are not available in the US and never were. They came on a Raleigh, and judging by the quality of the crank, they came on a pretty good one. This was a pretty good one. frame quality consistent with the components. So I see no reason to think anything was changed.

I saw that and thought it could do with some underlining. ;)

Raleigh obviously had large volume contracts with various component suppliers: Weinmann for brakes (replaced by Shimano in late '83), SunTour for transmission bits and SR and later Sugino for cranksets. Using different parts from those suppliers, they'd 'compose' their propositions for their different markets and price levels.

And Raleigh, like their bigger French competitors, knew that Americans were - more than Europeans - prepared to pay for bling and famous names. So, compared to their European offerings, the American market models generally featured more Reynolds, more Campagnolo and more chrome. And were probably more expensive.

For instance, Raleigh did have a Gran Sport in the European line-up in the early eighties, sporting Campagnolo Nuovo Gran Sport derailleurs, but they are rare in the UK and virtually non-existent on the European mainland. I remember seeing only one (1) here in Holland in the past ten years.

Kabuki12 04-18-19 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by rhm (Post 20888922)
That's the point I was trying to make in my assorted posts above. It was pointed out that components can be changed, and that is true. But the components are Raleigh-branded OEM stuff that one way or another came on a Raleigh. The Raleigh-branded seat post and crank are components we've never seen in the US. So whereas it would be possible to get some random Raleigh frame and put random other parts on it, the Raleigh-branded OEM parts are not available in the US and never were. They came on a Raleigh, and judging by the quality of the crank, they came on a pretty good one. This was a pretty good one. frame quality consistent with the components. So I see no reason to think anything was changed.

My daughter has a 1978 Super Grand Prix with Raleigh branded cranks like the ones pictured but hers are drilled for the trouser guard ring. I thought they looked like SR cranks. Joe joesvintageroadbikes.wordpress

Danbianchi881 04-18-19 10:17 AM

Great find, hope you enjoy its

cqlink 04-22-19 07:33 AM

I'm about 2/3 complete on reassembly. I'll post detailed pics this week. Nervar crankset. Paint is original. Chain guard paint matches bike. Reynolds 531 decals on seat tube and forks are original. Appears to have Zeus dropouts similar to a Euro Competition I had.

I'd like to know the model year of the bike. There's an SN on the rear dropout. I'll post that as well.

Thanks.


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