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Raleigh Carlton Competition (Colorway: Copper)

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Raleigh Carlton Competition (Colorway: Copper)

Old 10-20-15, 07:23 AM
  #1  
RaleighRonson
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Raleigh Carlton Competition (Colourway: Copper)

Hi everyone,

first of all: i'm totally new to this hobby!

Last week I'd bought a Raleigh Carlton Competition in the colourway copper. The seller told me that its completely original apart from the tires.

Through my research, I read a few post about the Competition GS here in this forum.

I also visit the site from Sheldon Brown to find out more about my new Raleigh, but I couldn't find anything.

The letters on my Raleigh are such the same as the letters on the GS version. The handle bar and the saddle (Brooks Professional) are the same too. The only differents (for me as nooby) between the GS-Version and my Bicycle are the missing chrome-part in the back, the missing GS and the fork which has the "heart-like" part at the top.

For me it's a mixture between the Competition GS and the International

I hope you have a little more information about my Raleigh...?

Thanks so far guys

Best Regards from Hamburg, Germany
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Old 10-20-15, 07:28 AM
  #2  
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Absolutely beautiful Comp', it should clean up nicely and make for a fine bicycle, enjoy the miles and the smiles. Always liked that copper colourway on Raleighs. There is a pretty nice group of Comp' enthusiasts here in the C&V, you will have lots of people to draw from for advice. Welcome aboard.

Bill
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Old 10-20-15, 08:54 AM
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Beautiful bike ! The rear wheel is centered in the dropouts which are attached to the stays. One leads up to the seat and called the seat stays. The other goes to the bottom bracket(BB) and is called the chain stay. That was what you trying to describe being non chromed in back.

I remember fondly my time in Germany. I was there in 87-88 around the Kaiserslautern area. Wonderful times riding my bike all over your country. You have a great machine there and with proper fit and maintanence will provide many years of good travel.
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Old 10-20-15, 09:06 AM
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Pretty! Clean it up good and give it a coat of wax. Then it will really sparkle.

If you get a chance, please post a picture of the drive side of the bike - people like to see all the drivetrain components.

I'm surprised if those are the original brake levers. I suppose they'll work, but something without the "turkey levers" will work better and look more the part. If you wind up changing them, you can route the cables behind the bars. That's the standard routing. In addition to looking proper, the cables are less prone to flopping around.
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Old 10-20-15, 11:25 AM
  #5  
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The only source of catalogs online I know of are for the US market-perhaps others will find one for the European/English market?

At any rate, that spiffy copper color was for the International in 1975, perhaps some later as well. Internationals had chrome front and rear. I think you've nailed it with the combo Comp/International moniker! Raleigh was known for mixing and matching lugs, the frame geometry within the same model/year can differ, who knows what else. It's safe to say your frame is somewhat unique!

Also don't think you have to keep any of the components just the way they are. I see already SunTour power shifters that are not original. The brake levers are almost certainly not as well.

Here's a picture of my Competition. The only thing original is the frame and fork. Even that part of the bike has been highly modified:


You can ride it as is, go full blown modified, or anything in between. These old Raleighs are very malleable to your needs, and they ride quite well.
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Old 10-20-15, 11:47 AM
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Need more photos. I have a faint suspicion this bike was for the German market and is different from what we saw in North America. I've never seen a Suntour-equipped Competition; nor one with that fork crown.
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Old 10-20-15, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
Need more photos. I have a faint suspicion this bike was for the German market and is different from what we saw in North America. I've never seen a Suntour-equipped Competition; nor one with that fork crown.
I'm wondering what went down at the Carlton factory in the early 70's? Let's say you're one of several framebuilders. You go grab a set of tubes, some lugs, dropouts, bottom bracket, and fork crown from the raw material bins and head back to your station. You braze it up, then take it over to the racks of semi-finished frames. The quality manager sees you coming, puts down his newspaper and pipe, and does a quick inspection. "Lad, put that one over in the Competition rack". The painter grabs it a day later, but realizes he's out of black paint, shipment won't be in until next week. Production manager says, "paint that batch with some of that nifty copper stuff. The Boche ordered up a few, they won't know the difference. If they ask, we'll tell 'em it's a special colour only for the continent."

I'll be willing to bet that the entire drivetrain isn't stock. Even new, Raleigh buyers were known to make modifications at the LBS.

Check out what this young lad did. He was clearly disturbed and headed for a future of not leaving well enough alone:



If his dad had taught him how to light a torch, who knows what damage he would have done?
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Old 10-20-15, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
I'll be willing to bet that the entire drivetrain isn't stock. Even new, Raleigh buyers were known to make modifications at the LBS.
What happens at the LBS, stays at the LBS! Like my 1978 Raleigh Pro. It was purchased by the original owner from some LBS in 1984 as a bare frame and built up with Campy SR. No doubt the original NR had been stripped off for some fancy Italian frame as apparently this was the fasted and cheapest way to secure an NR group.
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Old 10-20-15, 01:17 PM
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The components, if original, may present an interesting problem. But I'm more concerned with the frame. I just don't see a Competition. What I see has a Super Course look to it. But I will wait for more photos.
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Old 10-20-15, 02:42 PM
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Super Course with 531 fork blades? Or are you suspicious of a repaint job?
@RaleighRonson, drive side pics please? Also, a close up of the rear derailleur?

The drive side dropout will prove to be most informative.
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Old 10-20-15, 03:42 PM
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Well, it does say "Competition" on the top tube but I've never seen a copper one. My 73 or 74 (can't remember) also has painted, rather than chromed, stays. But it's plain old black. On a slightly tangential note, what does "colorway" mean as opposed to just "color?" I've seen it occasionally recently but I don't know the distinction or where the term came from.
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Old 10-20-15, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
On a slightly tangential note, what does "colorway" mean as opposed to just "color?" I've seen it occasionally recently but I don't know the distinction or where the term came from.
It's just a fashionable thing that dropped down long ago from the fashion industry and was picked up by the hoi polloi. Often it's used ironically or sarcastically, to make fun of hipsters and other people who might seem a little too precious in their raiment and their doings.
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Old 10-20-15, 08:26 PM
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I see a 1977 model (by serial number). That was the year Raleigh re-did pretty much their whole line-up. Super Courses had a very similar fork crown and Sun Tour components, but had Bar-cons. Probably the easiest and surest way to tell would be seat post size. If 26.8, it would be the tubeset equivalent of a Super Course.

The copper color is not consistent with either the Competition nor the Super Course based on the catalog scans. That color is more associated with the International (which does not appear in the US catalog for 1977 or 1978).
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Old 10-20-15, 09:02 PM
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The top tube cable guides are unusual. Raleigh used a lot of braze ons.
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Originally Posted by Craigslist View Post
Note to you BLOWHARD MORONS out there: The fork is not bent. Most PEUGEOTS of the '70s forks DID NOT line up with the head tube angle. This is normal. The last pic is from the 1972 Dutch catalog showing this EXACT MODEL in diagram. Keep your comments to yourself......
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Old 10-20-15, 09:06 PM
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I also just noticed that this lacks the "signature" arced rear brake cable stop.

* quietly reminds self that with Raleigh, all things are possible *
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Old 10-20-15, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TimmyT View Post
The top tube cable guides are unusual. Raleigh used a lot of braze ons.
Pretty sure my old Raleigh Professional did not have tt brake cable guides. Not sure what year it was. Late 1970s -ish
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Old 10-20-15, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
Pretty sure my old Raleigh Professional did not have tt brake cable guides. Not sure what year it was. Late 1970s -ish
Yeah, I typed that before I looked at the late 1970s Comp USAZorro linked. I have an early 70s comp with similar lettering and the same fork crown that @rhm noted, but it has tt braze-ons. Also, there was a weird one that passed through my hands that had Suntour dropouts from 1976. It had cyclone derailleurs, too.
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Originally Posted by Craigslist View Post
Note to you BLOWHARD MORONS out there: The fork is not bent. Most PEUGEOTS of the '70s forks DID NOT line up with the head tube angle. This is normal. The last pic is from the 1972 Dutch catalog showing this EXACT MODEL in diagram. Keep your comments to yourself......
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Old 10-20-15, 09:27 PM
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Wow, I thought I was the only one with a mystery Raleigh. Everything on my bike is mis-matched according to what I've seen on Sheldon Brown:

The decals are from the late 70's but it has suntour deralilleurs and cottered cranks. The bikes in the Raleigh catalogues have Huret derailleurs (except for the high end models) up until 1977. But no bikes shown have cottered cranks after 1976. Also there are no decals on the top tube that tell what model this bike is (International? Definitely not Grand Prix)
The hash marks on the headbadge indicate this bike was made at the Malaysian factory, not in England.
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Old 10-20-15, 10:37 PM
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@RaleighRonson,

Please note that the C&V forum is active, anxious, and wanting of more photos!

Don't leave us hanging!
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Old 10-21-15, 12:34 AM
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Hi everyone!

Wow thank you for all your great replies!

In the evening I will send you more picture of my raleigh.

I don't think it's a random mixture of different components just because there was a lazy framebuilder

To proof that, i've found such the same raleigh on ebay. - maybe it's interesting for all of you.

vintage altes Raleigh Carlton Rennrad 70er/80er Jahre braun 12-Gang | eBay

But I don't leave you guys hanging – the link is only to bridge the time until evening

Best regards
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Old 10-21-15, 05:07 AM
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Yes, that Raleigh on ebay seems very similar. I'm intrigued by the crank, which appears to be a Raleigh-branded Sugino Mighty (or the like), something that I've never seen in the US. I suspect yours has the same. Raleigh-branded Sugino Maxy cranks appeared on some models, but that's not what you have.
@RaleighRonson, I think we'd like to see photos of your components (derailleurs, crank, brakes); 531 tubing decal on the seat tube; and frame details, such as head lugs, dropouts, etc. I'd also like to know the seat post size (27,2 mm?).
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Old 10-21-15, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rcrxjlb View Post
Wow, I thought I was the only one with a mystery Raleigh. Everything on my bike is mis-matched according to what I've seen on Sheldon Brown:

The decals are from the late 70's but it has suntour deralilleurs and cottered cranks. The bikes in the Raleigh catalogues have Huret derailleurs (except for the high end models) up until 1977. But no bikes shown have cottered cranks after 1976. Also there are no decals on the top tube that tell what model this bike is (International? Definitely not Grand Prix)
The hash marks on the headbadge indicate this bike was made at the Malaysian factory, not in England.
Interesting puzzle, but that's definitely not an International. Going from the tubing, it looks like a Record or an R1027. The style of lettering on the decals points to 1977 or later.
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Old 10-21-15, 05:22 PM
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Hmmm... your pics aren't showing up (just as invalid attachments for me).
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Old 10-21-15, 06:02 PM
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Old 10-21-15, 08:43 PM
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The mix-match of paint and components by Raleigh doesn't surprise me. I had one of the early Competitions that had a Gran Sport paint scheme in two shades of violet, but had the gold labeling like most Competitions and came with sew-ups. It also had a Stronglight/Huret drive train instead of the Campag Gran Sport that came on the later models. Was it just an early or transition model or possibly a prototype? It was purchased as a previous year model in Northern California. ??????????
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