Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

help dating an older Grandis frame?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

help dating an older Grandis frame?

Old 10-23-15, 01:59 AM
  #1  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 203

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1989 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 22 Posts
help dating an older Grandis frame?

I'm hoping that someone here might be able to help date this Grandis "Special" frame I just picked up.

A few clues:

The left side of the seat cluster lug has "Z56" stamped on it. (the frame does indeed seem to be 56cm)
The cable routing on the BB goes over the top of the shell and has "Brev. Camp." stamped on it.
Likewise, front and rear drop-outs are Campag.
The rear drop-outs are the long-slot version, and have microadjusters.
The inside of the tubing that's visible to me looks to be smooth, rather than having straight or spiraling seams.
The BB shell is un-vented (no slots or holes).
The rear brake bridge is straight.
The forktube has either a "9" or a "6" stamped on it.
The name on the downtube stickers is rendered in rounded lettering.
The insignia on the headtube is a sticker, not panto'ed or stamped.
It's still finished in its original medium metallic blue paint.

I cannot find a serial number anywhere.
There's no pantographing on the lugs or anywhere else. The fork crown is plain. I presume this suggests it's a low-end version.

Any help in dating it would be greatly appreciated!

Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Grandis-BB_cable_routing.jpg (81.3 KB, 100 views)
File Type: jpg
Grandis-BB_shell.jpg (82.4 KB, 103 views)
File Type: jpg
Grandis-brake_bridge.jpg (62.7 KB, 103 views)
File Type: jpg
Grandis-downtube.jpg (60.9 KB, 104 views)
File Type: jpg
Grandis-forktube.jpg (56.1 KB, 102 views)
File Type: jpg
Grandis-front_dropout.jpg (83.0 KB, 96 views)
File Type: jpg
Grandis-rear_dropout.jpg (81.0 KB, 97 views)
File Type: jpg
Grandis-seatlug.jpg (67.9 KB, 101 views)
rch427 is offline  
Old 10-23-15, 08:20 AM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Bozeman
Posts: 4,094

Bikes: 199? Landshark Roadshark, 198? Mondonico Diamond, 1987 Panasonic DX-5000, 1987 Bianchi Limited, Univega... Chrome..., 1989 Schwinn Woodlands, Motobecane USA Record, Raleigh Tokul 2

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1131 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'd recommend taking it out to dinner first. Then maybe progress to a bit of polishing and rust removing, that'll really get the gears going. Make plenty of comments about it's beauty and style. How good it "rides." Etc.

You'll be dating the frame in no time.
corrado33 is offline  
Old 10-23-15, 09:05 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
devinfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,003
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 27 Posts
Nice looking frame. Late 70's, maybe? The only thing is that the finish around where the brake bridge joins to stays doesn't look quite up to what I'd expect from a Grandis frame. Actually none of the transitions do. Also I've only seen one example of a Grandis without pantographing on the fork crown and that was a mixte. Are you sure that's the original paint? What is the provenance on this frame? I'm no expert, just curious. Regardless it should build up into a great rider!

Last edited by devinfan; 10-23-15 at 09:18 AM.
devinfan is offline  
Old 10-24-15, 12:19 AM
  #4  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 203

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1989 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by Chuckk
But, it doesn't look like anything Silvino built to me.
You may be right, Chuckk; I'm afraid I wouldn't recognize his work. Could it have been made in the shop after he retired/died?

Originally Posted by Chuckk
You might try e-mailing them, they're enthusiastic about their older bikes.
I'll give that a try. Can they correspond in English?
rch427 is offline  
Old 10-24-15, 12:44 AM
  #5  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 203

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1989 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by devinfan
Also I've only seen one example of a Grandis without pantographing on the fork crown and that was a mixte. Are you sure that's the original paint? What is the provenance on this frame?
I bought it on-line from The Pro's Closet (don't know whether it was their Boulder or Denver location). They described it as definitely a legitimate Grandis frame, made of Columbus tubing, etc.

I'd say that the finish is original based upon both the decals appearing to be original and as-applied, and from the patina, which is consistent with its age and with use (I've been an antiques dealer for the past 25 years, so that's part of my thing).

The Pro's Closet has another Grandis frame available right now that has all of the pantographing and other nice touches that one would expect from Grandis ( Vintage Grandis Campion Del Mondo Road Bike Frame Set 55cm Medium Columbus | eBay ) but it's twice what I paid for my frame.
rch427 is offline  
Old 10-24-15, 12:46 AM
  #6  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 203

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1989 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by corrado33
I'd recommend taking it out to dinner first. Then maybe progress to a bit of polishing and rust removing, that'll really get the gears going. Make plenty of comments about it's beauty and style. How good it "rides." Etc. You'll be dating the frame in no time.
(shhhhh!!! my Hetchins is gonna get jealous)
rch427 is offline  
Old 10-24-15, 05:19 AM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
devinfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,003
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 27 Posts
Originally Posted by rch427
I bought it on-line from The Pro's Closet (don't know whether it was their Boulder or Denver location). They described it as definitely a legitimate Grandis frame, made of Columbus tubing, etc.

I'd say that the finish is original based upon both the decals appearing to be original and as-applied, and from the patina, which is consistent with its age and with use (I've been an antiques dealer for the past 25 years, so that's part of my thing).

The Pro's Closet has another Grandis frame available right now that has all of the pantographing and other nice touches that one would expect from Grandis ( Vintage Grandis Campion Del Mondo Road Bike Frame Set 55cm Medium Columbus | eBay ) but it's twice what I paid for my frame.

Well the Pro's Closet is a reputable seller so there we have it. +1 on contacting Grandis for the date. I had an idea: could the "z" before the 56 stand for Zeta? Olmo used a similar designation for their Gentleman Z bikes. Then your Z56 would equate to a bike made of Columbus Zeta, size 56. If that's the case it would put the build later than I originally guessed - into the 80's which would make the paint make sense. I originally guessed 70's because I didn't see any down tube braze-ons, but now I realize maybe you just didn't photograph them? Great looking frame, anyway, enjoy it! If it does turn out to be Zeta my Olmo is and is one of my favourite riders.
devinfan is offline  
Old 10-24-15, 06:28 AM
  #8  
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 174 Posts
It doesn't look like any Grandis I've seen...and the workmanship you'd expect is lacking. I haven't seen that seatcluster before, the brake bridge or the bb. I am skeptical. It's not just the lack of any distinctive markings, it's the lack of any filing. The other one they're selling looks like a fine example. Tempted myself!
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 10-24-15, 06:34 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: STP
Posts: 14,491
Mentioned: 74 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 821 Post(s)
Liked 258 Times in 143 Posts
Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
It doesn't look like any Grandis I've seen...and the workmanship you'd expect is lacking. I haven't seen that seatcluster before, the brake bridge or the bb. I am skeptical. It's not just the lack of any distinctive markings, it's the lack of any filing. The other one they're selling looks like a fine example. Tempted myself!
Agreed.

If it is, it's the least remarkable example I've seen.
gomango is offline  
Old 11-03-15, 08:44 AM
  #10  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 203

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1989 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by devinfan
+1 on contacting Grandis for the date.

I did so and, surprisingly (to me), got a response this morning:

"Goodmorning Mr [redacted], yes your frameset is a Grandis, roughly from 1969.
It was a common series for Grandis factory during the 80's, all the numbers and codes were just for internal purposes.

So it's not one of our best "masterpieces", anyway a truly handmade steel frame made in Italy and reliable.

Best regards
E. Grandis

Grandis s.n.c.
via strada della giara, 11
37142 Verona (VR)
-ITALY-"

So, there we have it. As gomango suggested -- an "unremarkable example" -- a bike-boom example even, but a Grandis nonetheless. I'm sorry that he didn't clarify whether it was made of Columbus Zeta, tho'... Does the 1969 date conform to the timeframe of that tubeset?

rch427 is offline  
Old 11-03-15, 09:57 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
devinfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,003
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 27 Posts
Awesome, and great that you got your information from the horses mouth, so to speak. Zeta was definitely an 80's tube set, no earlier, so that doesn't work. I'm a little confused by the email from Grandis - why does he (or she) quote info from a series from the 80's if your frame is from 1969? Also does it have shifter braze ons or not? Regardless, you have yourself a Grandis which is good news all round.


Originally Posted by rch427
I did so and, surprisingly (to me), got a response this morning:

"Goodmorning Mr [redacted], yes your frameset is a Grandis, roughly from 1969.
It was a common series for Grandis factory during the 80's, all the numbers and codes were just for internal purposes.

So it's not one of our best "masterpieces", anyway a truly handmade steel frame made in Italy and reliable.

Best regards
E. Grandis

Grandis s.n.c.
via strada della giara, 11
37142 Verona (VR)
-ITALY-"

So, there we have it. As gomango suggested -- an "unremarkable example" -- a bike-boom example even, but a Grandis nonetheless. I'm sorry that he didn't clarify whether it was made of Columbus Zeta, tho'... Does the 1969 date conform to the timeframe of that tubeset?

devinfan is offline  
Old 11-03-15, 11:24 AM
  #12  
Veteran, Pacifist
 
Wildwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 13,383

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 284 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3920 Post(s)
Liked 4,894 Times in 2,256 Posts
I have a mid-level Pinarello that with a nice set of wheels+tires is pleasingly enjoyable and nimble. Not a climber so it wears a triple.
and no... I don't take it out to the local Italian restaurant.
__________________
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Wildwood is offline  
Old 11-03-15, 11:44 AM
  #13  
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 15,944

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 174 Posts
I'm excited for you! And surprised! Great learning experience.

How are you going to build her?
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 11-03-15, 03:46 PM
  #14  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 203

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1989 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Liked 43 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by devinfan
I'm a little confused by the email from Grandis - why does he (or she) quote info from a series from the 80's if your frame is from 1969?
Yeah, that's weird. My reading of his explanation is that my particular frame was made in about 1969, but that the "Special" model of frame (geometry, lugs, lack of any decorative handwork, etc.) was most popular/common in the '80s. Perhaps it wasn't until Columbus produced their Zeta tubeset that Grandis could make much of a profit on that model, at which point it became more popular. Just my guess; there are plenty of smarter folks here.

Originally Posted by devinfan
Also does it have shifter braze ons or not?
No, mine doesn't.
rch427 is offline  
Old 11-03-15, 05:03 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
Lascauxcaveman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Port Angeles, WA
Posts: 7,923

Bikes: A green one, "Ragleigh," or something.

Mentioned: 194 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1628 Post(s)
Liked 632 Times in 357 Posts
That's pretty interesting. When I bought my early 70s Grandis, I was told "That's when Silvino was still doing all brazing himself" and it left me with the impression that Grandis was purely a lowest-volume, highest-end shop, with a a persnickety perfectionist control freak making sure everything was just so. But now it turns out they made regular bikes too.
__________________
● 1971 Grandis SL ● 1972 Lambert Grand Prix frankenbike ● 1972 Raleigh Super Course fixie ● 1973 Nishiki Semi-Pro ● 1979 Motobecane Grand Jubile ●1980 Apollo "Legnano" ● 1984 Peugeot Vagabond ● 1985 Shogun Prairie Breaker ● 1986 Merckx Super Corsa ● 1987 Schwinn Tempo ● 1988 Schwinn Voyageur ● 1989 Bottechia Team ADR replica ● 1990 Cannondale ST600 ● 1993 Technium RT600 ● 1996 Kona Lava Dome ●

Lascauxcaveman is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
TwinSpark
Classic & Vintage
7
01-11-15 11:52 AM
taner rona
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
12
03-06-13 12:57 PM
MrVo
Classic & Vintage
30
03-04-13 07:41 AM
klinkenborgen
Classic and Vintage Bicycles: Whats it Worth? Appraisals.
9
10-19-12 11:37 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.