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Please tell me about this tubing / bike

Old 11-24-15, 02:38 PM
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Please tell me about this tubing / bike

In my daily perusal of CL/eBay I found this:

VINTAGE OLMO FRAME - ORIA TC08 TUBING

I dont think I have ever heard about Oria tubing. Based on construction and decals it looks like an early 90's model. Does anyone know about this tubing?
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Old 11-24-15, 02:54 PM
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ITALIAN CYCLING JOURNAL: Oria Steel, Tubing for Frame Building
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Old 11-24-15, 05:31 PM
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I'd assume that 08 refers to the tubing wall thickness. I've owned a bike made of Oria TT09 before. Not much help but I can tell you that Olmo's are beautiful riders...
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Old 11-24-15, 05:43 PM
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Awesome. Thanks. I learned something new today. Now I have to get one to ride...
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Old 11-25-15, 12:54 AM
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Oria shows up on Pinarello Cadores, too. I expedited one for a fellow C&Ver last spring. Early 90's, I think?
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Old 11-25-15, 06:08 AM
  #6  
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Originally Posted by bici_mania View Post
In my daily perusal of CL/eBay I found this:

VINTAGE OLMO FRAME - ORIA TC08 TUBING

I don't think I have ever heard about Oria tubing. Based on construction and decals it looks like an early 90's model. Does anyone know about this tubing?
As pointed out in @lostarchitect link, there are a lot of unknowns about Oria tubing:

ITALIAN CYCLING JOURNAL: Oria Steel, Tubing for Frame Building

Most of the steel used in Oria's alloy tubing was made by the German steel producer Mannsemann as displayed on a lot of the tubing frame stickers. There's no telling who supplied the non-alloy steels used in their High-Tension tubes.

Mannsemann received a patent for seamless drawn over mandrel steel tubing in 1886, at least a year before Reynolds patented their process. They produced some very light, high quality bicycle tubes. Mannsemann still produces steel tubing but at some point they got out of bicycle tube business and Oria may have taken over that operation.



I have a Giordana frame made of Oria ML25 chrome moly tubing. the main tubes are light straight but the overall weight is about 5 oz. heavier than Columbus SL.




The seller lists the frame as being made of Oria High-Tension TC08 tubing.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIGH TENSION STEEL!!!

High Tension refers to high voltage electrical power transmission wires that are strung from towers at "high tension".




The term High Tension Steel was probably coined by the Japanese during the bike boom - it's Jinglish (Japanese translated English) for High Tensile Steel. It has became a part of bicycle terminology... WRONG!

High Tensile is not a technical term. There is no reference to strength or chemical make up. It's like hot rolled, cold rolled or heat treated!

Back in the late 1800 High Tensile Steel was used to describe steel that's stronger than weaker steel... How much weaker?

Alloy steels like 4130 chrome moly hadn't been developed yet. The standard carbon steel being produced at that time had a tensile strength between 25,000k and 45,000k. High Tensile Steel may have been 60,000k to 70,000k. The alloy steels used in bicycle frame tubes are about 125,000k. This allows lighter, thinner walled tubes to be used in sporting bikes.


The "High Tension" Oria tubing probably has a tensile strength of around 70,000k like Durifort, Tange Mangaloy and Columbus Aelle tubes.

This chart shows the wall thickness and weights of various Oria tube sets:



Oria High-Tension steel tube sets weigh about 10 oz. more than Columbus SL tubing.

The frame looks to be well made and should handle nicely. A frame made of lighter thinner walled tubing with the same geometry would have a smoother ride.

verktyg

Chas.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
MannesmannPatent.jpg (53.4 KB, 450 views)
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OriaTubingSpecifications.jpg (83.7 KB, 453 views)
File Type: jpg
HighTensionWires.jpg (40.3 KB, 452 views)
File Type: jpg
Mannesmann25CrMo4-a.jpg (45.1 KB, 450 views)
File Type: jpg
Giordana6-SeatTube.jpg (35.6 KB, 449 views)
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Old 11-25-15, 08:35 AM
  #7  
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Can't speak to the tubing but wanted to say nice frame. I have an Olmo San Remo. Looks similar to this one but uses Columbus Cromor tubing.

Opening bid price + shipping isn't too bad either. Maybe $50 high but these don't pop up often in the right size.
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Old 11-28-15, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by plonz View Post
Can't speak to the tubing but wanted to say nice frame. I have an Olmo San Remo. Looks similar to this one but uses Columbus Cromor tubing.

Opening bid price + shipping isn't too bad either. Maybe $50 high but these don't pop up often in the right size.
Will you post pictures of your Olmo? I have a San Remo as well.
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Old 11-28-15, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bici_mania View Post
Will you post pictures of your Olmo? I have a San Remo as well.
Here is a picture of the frameset from the eBay listing when I acquired it. Now that I've finished my Schwinn Tempo frame up build https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...l#post18269636, it is time to move on to the Olmo. Going with a Superbe group I've accumulated and for wheels, will probably go with the Campy Omega wheels I've had sitting around. Or maybe I'll get ambitious and lace up the Ambrosio Excellence repops that I just got.

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Old 03-01-22, 01:52 PM
  #10  
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post

High Tension refers to high voltage electrical power transmission wires that are strung from towers at "high tension".

Attachment 490192
I have an electrical engineering background and just want clarify that the meaning of "high-tension" is an electrical term relating to electromotive force (voltage), and has nothing to due with the physical tension of the transmission lines which are actually somewhat slack to allow for contraction of the wire at colder temperatures.

I only saw the mention of that since I was drawn to this thread while researching some ORIA tubed frames (Conti, Ciöcc, and Zuliani frames) with external spiral grooves on the main tubes. One had a designation of "ML 25" "3 TUBI". I don't know if this is correct due to the possibility of an incorrect replacement decal being used. ORIA decals were also on the fork. I saw no mention of 'spiral' when "ML 25" was previously mentioned. Is it another tubing altogether or just a special version of the 'standard' "ML 25" tubing?

Last edited by le bici di jaco; 03-01-22 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 03-01-22, 03:29 PM
  #11  
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Oria makes many types of tubing

On a par with Columbus or Reynolds
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Old 03-02-22, 01:24 AM
  #12  
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ARGH! Zombie Thread

Originally Posted by le bici di jaco View Post
I have an electrical engineering background and just want clarify that the meaning of "high-tension" is an electrical term relating to electromotive force (voltage), and has nothing to due with the physical tension of the transmission lines which are actually somewhat slack to allow for contraction of the wire at colder temperatures.

I only saw the mention of that since I was drawn to this thread while researching some ORIA tubed frames (Conti, Ciöcc, and Zuliani frames) with external spiral grooves on the main tubes. One had a designation of "ML 25" "3 TUBI". I don't know if this is correct due to the possibility of an incorrect replacement decal being used. ORIA decals were also on the fork. I saw no mention of 'spiral' when "ML 25" was previously mentioned. Is it another tubing altogether or just a special version of the 'standard' "ML 25" tubing?


This is a 6+ year old thread...

Three things that I learned early on in life: 1. Don't urinate against the wind! 2. Don't swap spit with a rattle snake! and 3. Don't sword fight with Zorro! HaHaHa!

I grew up in the 1940's surrounded by men who worked in the electric and electronic industries. My god father was the Chief Engineer for Duquesne Light Company, the major power supplier for western Pennsylvania; my father had been involved in electronics from before the 1920's. Driving through the country side on weekend fishing trips I used to listen to them talk shop about electrical power issues. By the early 50's I could tell the voltage of power transmission lines by looking at the ceramic insulators. The term High Tension Wires referred to high voltage power transmission lines that went from power generation plants to regional substations where the voltage was reduced and electricity was distributed to lower voltage power lines.

Seeing as you have stated your "EE" background, I wont make a fool of myself! HaHaHa

Getting back to the subject of High Tension Steel, please read my earlier post about steels:
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIGH TENSION STEEL!!!

"The term High Tension Steel was probably coined by the Japanese during the bike boom - it's Jinglish (Japanese translated English) for High Tensile Steel. It has became a part of bicycle terminology... WRONG!

High Tensile is not a technical term. There is no reference to strength or chemical make up of the material. It's like hot rolled, cold rolled or heat treated! [They're unspecific layman terms]

Back in the late 1800's High Tensile Steel was used to describe steel that's stronger than weaker steel... How much weaker? How much stronger?

Alloy steels like 4130 chrome moly hadn't been developed yet. The standard carbon steel being produced at that time had a tensile strength between 25,000k and 45,000k psi. High Tensile Steel may have been 60,000k to 70,000k psi. The alloy steels used in [classic] bicycle frame tubes were about 125,000k. This allowed for lighter, thinner walled tubes to be used in sporting bikes."

"with external spiral grooves on the main tubes."

I've never seen any commercial bicycle tubes with "external" spiral grooves". Oria RANF tubing had some type of INTERNAL reinforcements similar to Columbus SLX and TSX tubing but I've never seen the details on those Oria tubes.




Oria ML25 was made of 4130 (25CrMo4) Chrome Molybdenum steel. The 3 main tubes had straight gauge 0.7mm wall thickness top and seat tubes with a straight gauge 0.8mm wall thickness down tube. This made for a reasonably light, smooth riding frame.

"ML25 3 TUBI" would indicate that only the 3 main tubes were made of Oria ML25. The forks and rear stays could have been made of whatever???



Oria TT0.9 most likely was 4130 steel with 0.9mm wall thickness main tubes???

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Old 03-02-22, 02:04 AM
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The last steel bike to win the TDF had Oria tubing
Miguel Indurain:

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Old 03-02-22, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
"with external spiral grooves on the main tubes."

I've never seen any commercial bicycle tubes with "external" spiral grooves". Oria RANF tubing had some type of INTERNAL reinforcements similar to Columbus SLX and TSX tubing but I've never seen the details.





Pretty sure this was a Tecnotrat in house tubeset by Falck/Mannesmann

Last edited by Mackers; 03-02-22 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 03-06-22, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Mackers View Post
[/i]




Pretty sure this was a Tecnotrat in house tubeset by Falck/Mannesmann
I had contacted the owner of this Zuliani frame to see if it was for sale. It was my size, an odd brand (never heard of it before), and had the odd spiral tubing on the main tubes. He said he had been unable to find any actual direct information regarding the history of the make, other than a possible connection to an old (1950s) Italian racer; and no evidence as to the tube manufacturer other than the Oria decals on the frame when he got it. He didn't assume that the decals were correct, but had checked that the paint was original as best as could be determined. No bike brand decals remained, only the tubing decals. He figured it was at least butted/double butted due to its weight.

Seat post is 27.2mm. It could be Oria ML 25 given those seat tubes are .07mm wall thickness and is straight gauge as previously mentioned by verktyg; but there is no mention of grooves (external) or ribs (internal) for that type. If the 'RANF' tubes have straight internal reinforcement 'ribs' as previously mentioned being similar to Columbus SLX/SPX, TSX then there should be visible evidence to comfirm it, but why then the helical grooves if they were also intended for reinforcement/stiffening. The GM 0.0 has the external ridges so it not that type. I can't remember where I saw the same helical tubing on a Ciöcc or Conti frames (can't recall any decals), the owner of the frame in question also gives reference to what I presume are the same examples I saw so at least I know I wasn't dreaming it. I don't imagine Ciöcc/Conti (Conti and Ciöcc were the same company during that era) using low quality tubing so it gives credeence to this odd frame being of decent quality itself. Given the seat post diameter, and if it is Oria, I would assume it is a specially shaped tube set of ML 25, or as pure speculation possibly modified RANF or GM 0.0 types. I hadn't asked if there is any evidence of internal ribs, but I will do that if the owner is so inclined to check for me.

Sorry, site won't let me add photos; the reason I left. Anyways, thanks for the info and that interesting frame example with the crossing helical pattern which is different from the frame I'm looking at.
I'll post a link to that frame (Zuliani) when I get a chance.

Last edited by le bici di jaco; 03-06-22 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Grammatical
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Old 03-06-22, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mackers View Post




Pretty sure this was a Tecnotrat in house tubeset by Falck/Mannesmann
I’d love a frame like this
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Old 03-06-22, 01:56 PM
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I had to laugh some since @verktyg stated quite correctly about 'high tension' steel; and the Oria tubing chart essentially calls its low end product ("Hi Tension") exactly that. I guess if you patent a product or copyright a name you can change fiction into fact regardless of its technical veracity!

Here is the link to the Zuliani frame:
https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/zu...-frame.205038/
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Old 03-06-22, 04:32 PM
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"Unicorn" bikes

Here are some links to examples of this helical tubing. Apparently less mythical than the beast itself.

Steel Vintage Bike's examples are both Ciöcc bikes, and they state: "...Oria tubes have been helically crimped, creating a wonderful spiral shape. Their structure, resembling a mythical unicorn horn......Paintwork and decals are original." Unfortunately, though one frame does have an Oria decal (white with black lettering), you can't discern any writing on it that will provide a means to identify the tubing type.
https://steel-vintage.com/ciocc-50th...sary-200923-03
https://steel-vintage.com/ciocc-desi...ed220218-01-01

From The Spoken comes another Ciöcc example having a Columbus Cromor decal on it; and that site states: "...I have the pleasure of being the latest guardian of a Conti Astore road frame, which is built with a similar set of crimped tubes....My Astore had a Dedacciai sticker on the seat tube, which deepens the mystery further. There is evidence of the tubes being used on frames by other builders so they weren’t specific to Pelizzoli..." Ultimately, near the end of the article there is a quote supposedly from Alessandro Caccia at Pelizzoli stating: “Giovanni is honored seeing someone collect his old brand frames Ciöcc. The frame coming from the end of 80s — it’s not easy to say the right year but should be around ’86 to ’89, from the industrial production when Giovanni sold the brand to Cicli Conti (in Fara Gera d’Adda). The tubing is not Columbus Cromor but Oria with special twisted shape.” So another confirmation as to it being Oria tubing, but still no identification as to what type.
https://www.cycleexif.com/ciocc-strada

Finally a Dancelli on RetrobikeUK; again no identification (no decal) of the tubing type other than Oria
https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/...o-bike.322188/

I couldn't find the Conti again; it may have been a 'for sale' bike, and was just an ephemeral online listing.

I also tried to find a facsimile of the black and white Oria decal to no avail.

That's all I have!
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