Threaded headset confusion
 

I've been fixing up a ~1972 Raleigh Gransport but have run into an issue with the headset. When I took it apart, I was certain I put everything in a cigar box together. But, now am having an issue. I have 4 parts to put on it, the threaded top race, a spacer, the locknut, and another piece. This other piece is the guide for the brake cables, I'm sure you've all seen them, but I'm not sure of the exact name. So I put on the threaded top race, obviously, that's the first thing to put on. Second, I put the spacer, then the brake cable guide and finally the locknut. I think I have the locknut tightened as much as I can get it, it looks like it will only tighten so far down and then the threads on it stop (not positive about this and will test it tonight). The problem is, the brake cable guide piece is very loose and will rotate back and forth. Have I lost a spacer? Have I lost my mind? Does anyone know what's going on here?

Attached is a before and after pick of that part of the bike. It doesn't show much, but, maybe it will help you see what's going on and at least clarify some of my weird wording. Hopefully, it's clear which is a pre- and post cleaning pic. But if not, the first is post then second pic is pre-cleaning.

Thanks

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=493895
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=493896

Most of the locking nuts I have seen have a "shelf" on the top that will allow the nut to go so far. What this implies is that there is more space than previously between the fully threaded lock nut and the threaded race.

The first thing I would check is to make sure the locking ring is not bottomed out. If it is, then the issue is what is missing that was there before. Are all the parts assemble correctly? I can't imagine not given there is more rather than less space. The only thing I can think of is that there is a second spacer missing.

If it is not "bottomed" out, what are the conditions of the threads? Some times the tab on the spacer or cable stop bracket, if there is one, hangs on thread edges.

Does the HS rotate per your expectations?

Strange.

Same balls, or at least same size balls, in the same locations?

In the second pic, it looks as though the cup has not been inserted flush and straight into the head tube. This would mess up your re-assembly. A headset press is the best way to do this but it can be done with mallet and hardwood. Large wood clamps too. Just do it carefully.

If the cups were not fully seated, wouldn't there be less room between cup and locknut, not more?

It does look like the locking nut is bottomed out.
[MENTION=63590]jyl[/MENTION], good question about the balls, I have been wondering the same myself. The only bearing balls I've found that I took out were 5/32 in. I'm not positive that the same size balls were used in the top and bottom, but haven't seen any other size balls sitting around with the parts I took out. I replaced all the balls with 5/32.

What's the best way to go about buying new spacers?

Just to clarify what people are saying, the cup is the piece where the bearing balls go that is attached to the frame, right? I didn't touch that at all (not to say that it's not messed up).

So, I guess, I need to disassemble things and then put a piece of 2x4 over it and tap it in with a hammer, right?

That will seemingly create more space, right? Then, I'll definitely need another spacer, right?

I have, in the past, crammed too many balls in a loose ball bearing (usually a bottom bracket), and as a result the races end up farther apart than they were meant to be. The bearing also doesn't turn smoothly, but in a headset that might not be as noticeable.

Maybe not, the lock nut/washer would engage at a high spot and wouldn't apply equal pressure across the races and allow everything to loosen up. I realize he never took it off the bike but the pic just doesn't look right. If it does require alignment, yes another spacer will be needed.
To the OP, any bike shop should have a spacer for you, cheap.

edit. At second glance, it's not the cup in the frame, it's the top adjustable cup/race that looks wonky. As mentioned, the bearings are likely the source of the problem, in one way or another. Maybe there's just one oversized bearing in there? :)

Most of the comment of not the proper seating does contribute to less space, not more. The suggestion of smaller balls makes sense too.

Did you remove the crown race? One of the ones I removed had excessive paint under it. But that didn't make any difference in my case, so why did I mention it? Just another variable to consider.

Have you pulled the stem and double checked the locknut has gone as far as it can?

Also, did you mention if your bearings were ball and race or loose ball? If ball and race, I've put these in upside down before which prevented me from tightening the headset enough to take out all the play.

Some clarifications:
I used loose bearing balls, 5/32 in size.
Fort the parts that are essentially attached to the bike meaning the races and cups, I just cleaned them of old grease and did not remove them or do anything else.
The headset seems to be turning normally.
I have not checked that the locknut is going as far as it can, I will try check that tonight.

I think I'll take the whole thing apart, tap down the cup, and reassemble it tomorrow. If there is still a space, I'll head over to the lbs for spacers and hope that fixes things up.

Thanks for all the feedback and ideas. Although, it does seem like most of the potential problems should cause there to be less space not more.

Spacer should be on top of the cable stop bracket.

How was the headset fit before you took it apart. Maybe a PO assembled it poorly or forgot a spacer.

What they said about, if either the head tube races or the crown race weren't seated properly the top nut would lock down sooner, not later.

Are you sure you a reasonable number of bearings top and bottom?

FWIW, spacers are a few $ from Velo Orange.

probably a stupid question but is your brake bracket moving freely or with the fork. and im pretty sure the bracket goes on first then the space, i dont think that would be the issue. also check to see that nothing is cross threaded. also any play in the fork itself?