FORGET ABOUT SERIAL NUMBERS ON MOST BIKES FROM THAT ERA! :troll:


In the late 70's the US CPSC (Consumer Protection Safety Commission) mandated that all bikes sold in the US had to have traceable serial numbers... It never happened!

There were a few bike manufactures and importers who had traceable serial numbers like Trek, some Raleighs, many of the Japanese made bikes and so on but companies like Gitane, Peugeot, Motobecane, Bertin and most of the other large French producers stamped random numbers on their dropouts and BBs! Most of those companies have been dirt side down for over 25 years! :rolleyes:

END OF RANT!

The headset is a Shimano, maybe an early 80's 600?? The hubs are Campy, the cranks. brakes and FD are Shimano. You can't really judge much from a mismatched rear derailleur because they frequently got sucked into the spokes and replaced with whatever... like the Suntour Superbe.

This kind of component mix (all goood stuff) was common place of bikes built up from a bare frame.

OK so what do we have? If the seat tube lug is round, the 26.8mm seatpost narrows it down... Light gage French tubing or heavy gage imperial sized tubes like Columbus SP (or a lesser Columbus grade) and so on.

A light gage 28mm French diameter seat tube with a 0.5mm or 0.6mm wall thickness would take a 26.8mm seatpost

Heavy gage 1 1/8" imperial tubing like Columbus SP or Reynolds 1.0mm x 0.7mm tubing is 28.58mm diameter with a 0.7mm wall thickness and would normally take a 27mm seatpost.

It the seat lug was out of round someone could have used a 26.8mm seatpost.

Straight gage 1 1/8" seat tubes could have a 0.7mm, 0.8mm or 0.9mm wall thickness.

The easiest way to determine whether the tubing is metric or inch size is to measure the top tube - 25.4mm x 26mm. Add ~.2mm for paint. Measure in several places on the tube - side to side and top to bottom in case the tube is out of round.

The frame very well could have been made by a small frame builder. The lugs are Bocama Competition Ref 83 so with the Shimano components dates it in the early 80's.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=498964 http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=498965

Lug photos by Elton Pope-Lance - Harris Bike Shop

If the tubing is metric its a "bâtard"... If not then maybe it's a bastard! :lol:

Hope this helps a little.

verktyg :50:

Crusty Chas.

you have 2 of the best sleuths in the business weighing in (Chas. and T-Mar) so if they can't ID this I doubt that anybody can. Lot's of help ID-ing the bits that make it up so it seems more and more likely to be a one-off, and probably has had the braze-ons added later in life.
Ride it and just enjoy the mystery!

That's what I'm leaning towards too, at least for the cable tunnels. The long dropouts pretty much disappeared from use after 1977, when the short, Portacatena dropout was released. The eyelet-free dropouts first appeared in the 1974 catalogue. So, 1974-1977 seems the most probable date range. They definitely had brazed-on bottle and lever bosses by then but the cable tunnels were pretty rare.

Hi Chas ,

Again I thank you for your esteemed input .

Have carefully measured top tube and seat tube with vernier calipers .

The seat tube is 28.6 every way i measure it.
The top tube is odd (or is it ? ) 25.4mm one way and 25mm the other . Have rechecked this at various spots along the tube and it is consistent .

The seat tube clamp area looks round by eye .
Have tried a 26.8 post in it . It slides very easily compared to other bikes i have walked on . Does seem to clamp up ok though ?
Makes me wonder if it should have a 27mm post ? Unfortunately I dont have one here to try?
How loose is too loose ?
.20 of a mm is not a huge amount ( .10 either side )

Would appear to my inexperienced eye that is NOT metric

HA ha funny you should say that . I was contemplating getting a decal made saying " il figlio illegittimo"

Yes , I am constantly amazed and humbled by the depth and sharing of knowledge on here . The C&V frequenters are great !!!!!!

Will build it up and ride it with pleasure !

Thanks so much for your input !
I think this will just have to remain a mystery . Seems like a nice frame . I will have fun with it
Cheers

With zero inside info: this looks like a Richard Sachs. Colors, lugs, cutouts. Maybe custom built for someone where Sachs (or whoever built it) felt that a specific Tange tubing/seat tube had wall thicknesses that better suited the customer than the Reynolds or Columbus offerings. The seatstay ends look a little strange but this could be the customer's choice. I'd peg the date as 1976. (Cable under chainstays, brake cable guides on top of top tube, horizontal dropouts.) It would be fun if this is one of his really early ones and that might explain some of the odd details.

Again, no inside info at all. I used to see his bikes at races ('76-78) but I never took notes.

I've seen some odd customer choices. I have a bike built in 2007 with the boss for the top mounted DT shifters and the rear brake mounted forward of the seat stay. Another by the same builder with traditional seatstays. The builder's trademark is wishbone styled seatstays. (I own up. I am the odd customer.)

Thanks for the credit but there's a lot of other knowledgeable folks here too. [MENTION=20548]JohnDThompson[/MENTION] is always spot on! I learn new stuff from him all the time! ;)

verktyg :50:

Chas.

True, that^ you 3 together form the Mighty Triumvirate!
All Hail :)

Indeed !! we are not worthy haha

Also the rear OLN spacing on this frame is 120mm

All Hail... Hail Yes! :roflmao:


http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=500154


verktyg :50:

Chas.

If a frame like that showed up here, I'd be looking towards Belgium for the maker. Quite a few Belgian frame builders produced 'no name' frames to be branded by their clients. Often without any identifying marks, so as not to spoil the secret. This probably also explains why evidence is hard to find.

This Jan Janssen, for instance, was made by Vaneenooghe:

http://myalbum.com/photo/y5lbnrFTfnvS/1k0.jpg

A Belgian Jan de Reus:

http://myalbum.com/photo/9RAeXPF7FVQh/1k0.jpg

Rob van Oel had his bikes made in Belgium:

http://myalbum.com/photo/ReD6kJwsJCxQ/1k0.jpg

This second tier Vittorio was made in Belgium:

http://myalbum.com/photo/Zz9G2dTbC8rx/1k0.jpg

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=507404back from the painter . Went with a pearl off white that looks very crisp in the sun .
Now for the build ! decisions,decisions !

More pics here . https://www.flickr.com/photos/704884...57664112570790

Non-Fixie.

Jan de Reus was a dutch builder from Zwanenburg, near Amsterdam.
never heard of a Belgian Reus.

Marty

I know, I was born in Zwanenburg. :)

I took this bike to Jan de Reus' former shop when I bought it, where the current owner told me he was sure this was a Belgian frame. He couldn't tell me from which builder.

About a year ago I had a short but very interesting talk with Wout Verhoeven, who imported Belgian frames BITD for many reputable shops who wanted decent bikes for their customers at a reasonable price. For many shops they were the nicest bikes in the shop, and for those who built their own frames (like Jan Groot and Jan de Reus), they were their second tier offerings.

Verhoeven knew about frame building, and what he supplied was quite decent to very, very nice, from builders at DIJA and Derycke, to name a few.

I own a handfull of these frames, two of them from Jan de Reus' shop and they are branded as such. I have a frame built by Jan de Reus himself as well, and the difference is obvious.

The same goes for Jan and Frank Groot's Vittorio bikes. Their handbuilt Super Vittorios and Stradas are quite different from the Populair models that were supplied by Verhoeven, like the one in my previous post.

hi everyone .
Frame has been repainted and outfitted with new old parts of mixed heritage .
The paint is a very nice pearl which the pictures dont quite capture .

It really needs some decals though ! I was contemplating getting some made saying " figlio illegittimo" with a nod to its possible origins .
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=507880

Also a nod to Verktyg saying it was a batard ! :-)

Any suggestions happily perused

more pics on flickr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/704884...57664112570790

I'd keep an eye on that seat tube lug/top tube joint.

Hi (respectfully) what makes you say that ?

In the third or fourth photo in your post, you can see the top of the lug on the top tube isn't fully brazed. Probably just being paranoid.

ah ok yes i know what you mean . there are a couple of scallops on the edge of the lugs . I investigated them when paint was stripped and all looked solid

Nothing wrong with a bit of paranoia ! especially with old bike frames .

thanks for your concern

That came out very nice! Like the gold accents. That works well.

Lugs and Dropouts exactly the same as on my 1985 British built reynolds 531 Pro frame, built by a local framebuilder.

hiya thanks for the complement . tried to keep it muted . I think full lug lining in gold would have been tooooo much .

interesting ! Can I ask what seat tube size it had ?