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My Kestrel 200 SCI - Can you tell me a little about it?

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My Kestrel 200 SCI - Can you tell me a little about it?

Old 01-01-16, 11:54 PM
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haggiszero
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My Kestrel 200 SCI - Can you tell me a little about it?

I live in NYC and was gifted this Kestrel 200 SCI from a wealthy, older, co-worker that was upgrading to a $10K TREK. I received the bike about 4 years ago (in 2012). He gave me the bike Free when I told him the story of how my previous vintage-Trek was stolen. I know it was a very nice gift & I'm very grateful. I've probably ridden it only 600 miles sense.

I know its a nice bike because its vintage, full Durace, carbon (partially carbon?), and I've had more experienced riders in Central Park pull up along side me mid-ride and complement it. Also, I've seen older forum posts from 2010ish talking about the vintage Kestrels and how they are fairly iconic.

So, my question is. I know this bike is vintage but what would you do with it? Would you definitely keep it? Would it sell? I eventually want to upgrade to a more modern road bike to experience the difference between this bike and a more modern bike. However, I don't want to sell a classic bike that's potentially a collector item and has a story behind it.

I'd really appreciate it if someone that knows things about this bike model could tell me about it...I'd be most curious about tips to upgrade it (if even needed?), keep the frame - put the components on a new frame, history of this model/bike company, year (i don't know what year it is).

Much appreciated.








Last edited by cb400bill; 01-04-16 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Removed Appraisal Portions of Inquiry.
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Old 01-02-16, 12:23 AM
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The plastic bike that started it all
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Old 01-02-16, 12:47 AM
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Yeah, Kestrel was the first modern plastic bike, the one that started it all really. Before them the few carbon bikes around tried to imitate steel bike construction. I don't know what year that one is. Looks late 90s, perhaps? Have no idea of the current value. They were originally extremely expensive.

Parting it out would be kind of foolish.

I'm not sure what performance gains you expect in a 'modern' bike. IMO it'd be pretty much the same except for the sloping top tube.
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Old 01-02-16, 05:15 AM
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1-Welcome to the forum. There is a thread here for "show us your vintage carbon" or something like that.
2-I won't put a value on it. Nothing personal, but there's a value inquiry thread for that.
3-Based on the condition and components, whatever you spend on upgrades would be a waste of money, and mostly for vanity.
4-Set up right, these can be very smooth, or very harsh. My guess is smooth enough, but could be improved.
5-You are not going to get a better shifting system than that 9-sp Dura Ace.

My recommendation list, and really none of these are needed:
A-Swap in a carbon seat post, pick a saddle that your body likes. The ride can be smoother.
B-Drop the wired computer/eyesore. At minimum, pick up a lower end Garmin 200/210 and get rid of the wires.
C-White wheels: American Classic Sprint 350's, perhaps the Aero 3 420 (a bit stiffer, sacrificing smoothness).
D-FSA SL-K crank set with the BB386 bb, silver rings. (would ruin the group "totality," but would work).

I can say this, giving an educated opinion, because I've built and ridden several of those.

My "worst" was a 15.1 lb build for someone else, full carbon everywhere and extremely stiff and light tubulars. Very light, very fast, very stiff, and I hated it. I built it on request, rode it once for 35 miles, and hated it. No relaxation.

My "best" was actually not mine, or even my idea, but the identical frame, carbon seat post, American Classic Sprint 350's, 10-sp 105 shifters, 7800 FD/RD (no better than the 9-sp DA), and a carbon crank set, FSA Wing bars. It is just under 18lbs, but probably as smooth and as sweet a ride as I've been on, period. I think the combination of the wheel set, drive train, and cockpit just worked. My friend owns it and knows it. Of course, I have a standing offer in case he ever decides to go insane.

I don't want to be harsh, but if it fits, you'd be foolish to do much to it. You can get lighter bikes, smoother bikes, newer bikes, but not much, and it will cost you. That group is beautiful and works great. There is a technological advantage to a newer crankset, but that's all. You may see a ride improvement with a carbon seat post, a saddle that fits, and different wheels, but only with certain wheels, the Ksyrium is an excellent wheel.

Trek retained Aegis Systems, Inc to help create a carbon frame set. Aegis did so, but a disagreement about how to do so arose among the Aegis designers/engineers. Some of them left chilly Maine for sunny California, to form Kestrel. Those left behind created beautiful carbon frames that were very aero for then and now, and very expensive, but with a lifetime warranty. The ones who departed found funding and created similar-looking Kestrel frames, I think beginning in 1986, that were quite similar in appearance to the Aegis. The forks and seat stays on the Aegis eventually became very bladed, and Aegis no longer makes frames; the Kestrels were pretty consistent for years, and were the better-known "milestone" carbon frames; the game changers. Several of Kestrel's models have become the Bike of the Year for some magazines, etc, and the RT series was known as one of the best values in an all-around bike for their era.

Not only was the 200 series an iconic design and promotion, the no-seat-post Airfoil, along with Trek's Y-Foil and Giant's MCR, a step outside the box, among the frames banned by the UCI for being "too much."

Good luck with that. It is a nice bike and a prime theft candidate.
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Old 01-02-16, 06:26 AM
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Moved from C&V to C&V Appraisals with 3 day re-direct.
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Old 01-02-16, 06:30 AM
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Please make sure that you properly install the rear wheel before you ride it.
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Old 01-02-16, 06:54 AM
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I don't know much about Kestrel bikes, other than they are thought of highly, but I wouldn't do anything more than clean, lube, and touch up the scratches in the paint. I would also make any minor changes needed to make the bike fit me, like the seat or stem.

I agree with the comment about ditching the wired computer, you can get a basic wireless computer for $20, a little more if you want cadence. Garmin discontinued the 200, but I got mine on clearance for $100. That bike is too pretty to clutter up with wires.
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Old 01-02-16, 07:23 AM
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Robbie is an expert on bikes like this one. I recommend you take his advice.

A comparable modern bike is going to cost you a lot of money.

Reminds me I have a Kestrel in the "to be built" queue right now.
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Old 01-02-16, 07:26 AM
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Very pretty bike. Just look on eBay to see values, search for completed auctions. Your rear quick release skewer is missing (bike is unrideable without it). The bike could use bar end plugs and nicer bar tape.

You can get a "modern" bike that will be lighter, but if you are just riding around NYC you don't need a super lightweight bike (no long climbs), to get "a lot" lighter in a new bike will cost a lot ($4K+), and it won't get near the looks and appreciation (by knowing riders).

Basically, if you only ride 600 miles in 4 years, there's really not much point to replacing this bike. As wall art, it is hard to get a carbon bike better than the 200Sci. If a bicycle were to be in the MOMA, the Kestrel 200 would be it.
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Old 01-02-16, 10:37 AM
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@curbtender has one on his list of bikes
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Old 01-02-16, 11:10 AM
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it was my race bike @ university... mine is a pat. pending model, so I don't even have the EMS fork

Personally I wouldn't dump too much money into it... but if you have the 130 spaced rear, you can upgrade to current tech...
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Old 01-02-16, 11:32 AM
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I really don't have anything bad to say except for bb flex when I'm out of the saddle. But I'm no lightweight. It's my favorite down hill bike and I have it set up for taking me up the hills. I get a lot of comments from former owners that they miss their Kestrals. Collectable? Local shop has a virgin frame for $1200. I see them regular on CL $650 to $900 built. I think Robbie once described my bike as a 'Ferrari with a tractor motor'. I'd have to agree...


Local sale- https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/bik/5378040147.html

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Old 01-02-16, 01:54 PM
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Thanks Everyone! Some really good information! I keep my bike in my apartment and anytime its outside for a short period it's U-Locked so hopefully very little theft risk.

I'm looking to join a bike club in 2016 and do my first Cat-5 race.

What I'm possibly most interested in doing is keeping the frame but upgrading the gearing to the Shimano Dura-Ace 9070 DI2 - Electric shifting kit. Other than the expensive price of that product at ~$2K, what do you think about that idea? How does that compare to Robbie's idea of putting on the FSA SL-K BB386 crank set? I figure then if I ever upgrade I can just buy a new frame and transport the eletronic-shifting Di2 system over to the new frame.

Then, I'd put the old 9-sp Dura-Ace kit on my wife's bike which only has Shimano 105. I need to determine if her bike could support that.

I'm aware the rear skewer is out. I use an indoor trainer during the winter so I frequently remove the wheel.

It seems the consensus is that upgrading will provide minimal incremental improvement to ride quality/speed/etc on this bike despite it being a late 90s/early 00s model. That's what I expected to hear honestly.

The bike fits me well (I think? I'm 5'8"). It puts me in a bit of an aggressive form/reach but that's OK - I've grown used to it. I am considering upgrading to a more modern threadless stem that's a little shorter than the quill stem that's currently installed and feels a bit long. Upgrading to a threadless stem would be good on this bike?

I will consider swapping in a carbon seat post. I just got a new saddle, the ISM Prologue, which I've heard great things about since I get numbness in my 'you-know-what' from longer rides. Haven't tested it for a long ride yet but my initial impression was very positive.

I second needing to get the handlebars re-wrapped and new plugs to pretty it up. I'll do that.

I'm going to take off the wired computer/eyesore because I recently installed the Wahoo S/C and I'm planning to get the newly released Wahoo Elemnt bike computer come spring-time.

I don't think I'll upgrade the wheels at this time, I like the look of the current wheels.

Is it hard to get the paint job / knicks touched up? Can a bike shop do that?

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Old 01-02-16, 06:02 PM
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If the price is right, an early carbon bike like this might be worth purchasing because it is unique and because it has nice components. My guess would be $600-$800.

It is not worth buying with the intent of upgrading to components found on modern carbon bikes. Huge advancements in carbon's stiffness and weight have been made since this bike was designed. You say you plan to start racing... glad to hear but you'd be better off riding a modern carbon frame with 105 vs. this bike with DI2.

Since you plan to race, I'd recommend something newer if your budget permits. If it doesn't, race this one as is and start saving your $ because you'll get the need for more speed!
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Old 01-02-16, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by haggiszero View Post
Thanks Everyone! Some really good information! I keep my bike in my apartment and anytime its outside for a short period it's U-Locked so hopefully very little theft risk.

I'm looking to join a bike club in 2016 and do my first Cat-5 race.

What I'm possibly most interested in doing is keeping the frame but upgrading the gearing to the Shimano Dura-Ace 9070 DI2 - Electric shifting kit. Other than the expensive price of that product at ~$2K, what do you think about that idea? How does that compare to Robbie's idea of putting on the FSA SL-K BB386 crank set? I figure then if I ever upgrade I can just buy a new frame and transport the eletronic-shifting Di2 system over to the new frame.

Then, I'd put the old 9-sp Dura-Ace kit on my wife's bike which only has Shimano 105. I need to determine if her bike could support that.

I'm aware the rear skewer is out. I use an indoor trainer during the winter so I frequently remove the wheel.

It seems the consensus is that upgrading will provide minimal incremental improvement to ride quality/speed/etc on this bike despite it being a late 90s/early 00s model. That's what I expected to hear honestly.

The bike fits me well (I think? I'm 5'8"). It puts me in a bit of an aggressive form/reach but that's OK - I've grown used to it. I am considering upgrading to a more modern threadless stem that's a little shorter than the quill stem that's currently installed and feels a bit long. Upgrading to a threadless stem would be good on this bike?

I will consider swapping in a carbon seat post. I just got a new saddle, the ISM Prologue, which I've heard great things about since I get numbness in my 'you-know-what' from longer rides. Haven't tested it for a long ride yet but my initial impression was very positive.

I second needing to get the handlebars re-wrapped and new plugs to pretty it up. I'll do that.

I'm going to take off the wired computer/eyesore because I recently installed the Wahoo S/C and I'm planning to get the newly released Wahoo Elemnt bike computer come spring-time.

I don't think I'll upgrade the wheels at this time, I like the look of the current wheels.

Is it hard to get the paint job / knicks touched up? Can a bike shop do that?
I suggest you ride it as is, as you get into racing. You can figure out how serious you really are about racing, what kind of races you like, and what kind of bike is best for those races. Crits, TTs, even track, any of those might suit you and they would all require different types of bikes.

Your equipment, including the bike, certainly isn't going to be what's holding your racing results back at first, and maybe not for quite a long time.

The Di2 installs I've seen, that are external as this would have to be, look bad. You have to tape the wires to the frame. On an all white bike, even using white tape, that will look, well, ghetto. Anyway, if you are going for pure racing performance, you will definitely be better off spending $2K on a used 2-5 year old race bike with mechanical shifting, than putting electronic shifting on a 30 year old frame.

You can't install a threadless stem unless you use a threaded to threadless adapter, which always looks bad. Threadless stems are not any better than quill stems, assuming the stem fits you.

Last edited by jyl; 01-02-16 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 01-02-16, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by haggiszero View Post
.......

Is it hard to get the paint job / knicks touched up? Can a bike shop do that?
I've never, ever seen a bike shop that would do cosmetic work like this. There probably are shops that will do it, but I haven't seen one. Its really a DIY job for the bike owner.

If you want convenience to easily/quickly swap stems, then a threadless conversion is the way to go. Yes, they look a bit odd on older bikes, but they work just fine.

When you are ready for Di2, I would seek out a nice replacement used bike that already has it.

As far as multiple drive train swaps, those too favor the DIY approach. And Shimano 105 is nice stuff, depending on the era and who does the work, its a relatively expensive swap for minor gain.
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Old 01-04-16, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
Robbie is an expert on bikes like this one. I recommend you take his advice.

A comparable modern bike is going to cost you a lot of money.

Reminds me I have a Kestrel in the "to be built" queue right now.
Reminds me that Kestrel made the PDG Paramount Series 9C for Schwinn. Rare brand of that breakthrough frame.... and you have one.
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Old 01-04-16, 10:29 AM
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I'll answer/give my half-wit opinions inside the quotes, in bold.
Originally Posted by haggiszero View Post
Thanks Everyone! Some really good information! I keep my bike in my apartment and anytime its outside for a short period it's U-Locked so hopefully very little theft risk.
Sounds good. My Ryobi would take about 60 seconds to get through that, and makes noise. Locks are still the best deterrent out there. Most thieves will risk the time and noise only on a more expensive bike.

I'm looking to join a bike club in 2016 and do my first Cat-5 race.
You will be just fine on that bike in Cat-5. Don't get into the arms race until your engine is better than theirs. Period. That bike will not keep you off any podium, and by the time it gets that close, you'll be in Cat-3. Fitness, conditioning, tactics will determine your success in Cat-5, and whether you or others at that level can keep from wiping each other out.


What I'm possibly most interested in doing is keeping the frame but upgrading the gearing to the Shimano Dura-Ace 9070 DI2 - Electric shifting kit. Other than the expensive price of that product at ~$2K, what do you think about that idea?
In my view, and experience, you will not see any improvement for your money over DA 7700, other than not missing any shifts, which is due to inexperience in most cases, not Dura Ace malfunction.

DA7700 is the lightest/"flickable" shifting this side of Di2, weighs less, and is easier to install, maintain, and preserve. Plus, you already own it. Any performance return is negligible vs. re-charging, installation, and downright difficult to crappy installation possibilities on a frame like that.


How does that compare to Robbie's idea of putting on the FSA SL-K BB386 crank set? The crankset will be your best bang for the buck. 1-Lighter, 2-External BB gives better power transfer, say the tech folks.

I figure then if I ever upgrade I can just buy a new frame and transport the eletronic-shifting Di2 system over to the new frame.
If you ever upgrade, you'll likely buy an entire new bike, maybe swap out the wheels (those Mavics will run 11-speed).

Many new bikes are much more friendly to Di2, and Di2 is going to change a lot by the time you are genuinely in need of a bike upgrade.

In fact, that's my challenge to you: run Cat-5 as you are, perhaps with a stiffer, lighter crankset, and stick with it (which is the hardest part). If you stick with it, which doesn't always happen, you'll know exactly what you need, exactly what you want, and you will not have wasted a ton of time and money trying to buy speed.

I'm not doubting you, I'm challenging you to hang in there when positive reinforcement does not always come quickly; earn your stripes and then reward yourself. Do not try to reward yourself before you get fast; you'll be disappointed.


Then, I'd put the old 9-sp Dura-Ace kit on my wife's bike which only has Shimano 105. I need to determine if her bike could support that.
Shimano 105 is something 99.9% of the riders on the planet cannot outride. Few, if any, non-pro's are any faster, or better with 105 over DA. 105 is a little heavier shifting, so she'll over-shift at first. It's a nice upgrade, but won't make any difference. Give her the 9-sp DA when you get a new bike.


I'm aware the rear skewer is out. I use an indoor trainer during the winter so I frequently remove the wheel.

It seems the consensus is that upgrading will provide minimal incremental improvement to ride quality/speed/etc on this bike despite it being a late 90s/early 00s model. That's what I expected to hear honestly.

The bike fits me well (I think? I'm 5'8"). It puts me in a bit of an aggressive form/reach but that's OK - I've grown used to it. I am considering upgrading to a more modern threadless stem that's a little shorter than the quill stem that's currently installed and feels a bit long. Upgrading to a threadless stem would be good on this bike?

To be clear, you generally need a threadless headset with a threadless steerer and stem, so you'd need a fork swap and a headset swap, and then a stem and bars.

At bare minimum, You would need a 1" threadless headset, and then your steerer will still likely be too short to accommodate anything but a stem sitting right on top of the head tube (i.e. "slammed"). It's also trying to grab onto threads, not a smooth steerer. I've seen it done, no fork swap, no quill adapter, for a slammed crit bike. Quite an aggressive setup, but my guess is you'd need a bigger frame to get the fit right. You'd likely have to turn the stem "up" to get the fit you need.

If you are considering a quill adapter and a threadless stem, you will gain what height you need, and would be able to use some carbon bars that more suit your style. It's a cosmetic issue after that, for the space below the adapter, down to the headset. You won't need to swap the fork and you won't need to swap the headset. This is by far the most common setup.

Best case, most expensive: new 1" threadless fork (good luck finding one that fits) and then a headset, stem, and bars.


I will consider swapping in a carbon seat post. About the same weight, but probably a bit more comfortable.

I just got a new saddle, the ISM Prologue, which I've heard great things about since I get numbness in my 'you-know-what' from longer rides.
Try just the saddle swap first, and no post switch may be necessary. Haven't tested it for a long ride yet but my initial impression was very positive.

Some Kestrel 200-series frames require the seat post be cut to an exact length so it "bottoms out" in the frame. Inside that seat tube, at the top, is an aluminum collar that grabs the seat post. Below that collar is a gap of air between the post and the carbon frame. Effectively, the aluminum collar becomes a "leverage point" if the saddle is raised well out of the frame and the bottom end of the seat post is sitting in air. Bottomed out in the frame, it is much less prone to moving around.

Early Kestrels, including those supplied to some teams, had riders optiong to go to a smaller frame for stiffness and weight, run the seatpost up high, and if the bike simply fell over, the leverage created by that seatpost sticking out so far, and the saddle on it, would crack not only the carbon frame at the top of the seat tube, but the aluminum collar, too.

Before you go making seatpost changes, check that out very carefully. Making a mistake there will let you "upgrade" right away, out of necessity.

I second needing to get the handlebars re-wrapped and new plugs to pretty it up. I'll do that.

I'm going to take off the wired computer/eyesore because I recently installed the Wahoo S/C and I'm planning to get the newly released Wahoo Elemnt bike computer come spring-time. +1

I don't think I'll upgrade the wheels at this time, I like the look of the current wheels.

Is it hard to get the paint job / knicks touched up?
Not hard. Go to a hobby shop, get a white Testor's paint pen. Go slow, and use rubbing compound or cheap paste wax to rub out any excess. It's tedious, but 15 minutes a day for a week, and you can make many of them disappear.

Can a bike shop do that?
If a bike shop does, they'll charge you shop labor for unskilled trial and error. I'd recommend against it, unless it's a shop that restores bikes, and then you'll pay even more, and with carbon, a shop may decide it's a liability issue to fix any kind of nick or gouge.
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Old 01-04-16, 07:38 PM
  #19  
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This was a "donated" frame that had the crankset R arm and BB "permanently" installed. So, we made a bike out of it and sold it, broke even.
This has the OEM threaded fork, so we added a quill adapter and a Chinese stem/bar combination. Not a bad bike for $350.


This was originally a green 200SC, and it is simply amazing to ride. This has had the fork replaced, and a 1" threadless headset added.
Since the picture, he's installed a Stronglight Pulsion crankset, and carbon pedals. It's down around 17 lbs. Awesome.


This came from eBay, and we added a quill adapter, spacers, and modern wheels. I think it came out right nice. The owner prefers it to his carbon Specialized Roubaix.
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Old 01-04-16, 08:41 PM
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Thank you for your time Robbie. Very beautiful pictures of the bikes, thanks for sharing. I really like the red. I'd love to paint mine red and redecal it. That's probably not the best project to try to complete in a NYC apartment though.

Two days ago I thought to put the bike up on Ebay for a price of $1,500 and just see if anyone bid, its there now actually. I figured with that price plus another $1K i could buy a very nice Look Aero bike. It's very easy for me to get sucked into the thought of putting the funds towards the beauty of newer bikes - I really like the Look AR2!!

But now you have me thinking of investing a little into the bike to update it - quill adapter, threadless stem, crank set, carbon seat post, paint clean-up, grips, maybe even wiring covers. I think if I freshen it up a little then I'll come to appreciate it more. I'm going to take down the listing for now.

I totally agree that I'll be fine on this bike in Cat-5 and that the only things which which will limit me are my fitness level, dedication, and experience riding in groups of riders. A bit cliche but Lance was right when he wrote "Its not about the bike".

Who knows, maybe by the time I'm ready to upgrade the selling price of this bike isn't as significant to my budget & I'll just keep it for the collector in me.

The more I read about Di2, the more I agree that this bike isn't suited for that. It would probably look tacky all tacked onto this frame. I think that upgrade is better saved until I upgrade and can have the bike accommodate internal battery/wiring.

Thanks for all the help!

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Old 01-04-16, 09:39 PM
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After a bit of thread posting cleanup, we have moved this thread back to C&V.
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Old 01-04-16, 10:45 PM
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Do you think I'd be too slammed down with this quill stem? It's -15 degrees. I'm thinking maybe to keep it quill, possibly...I've been wanting to shorten my 110mm (maybe its 100mm) to 80mm.


https://www.brothercycles.com/shop/g...pe-quill-stem/

I think this stem might be a nice contrast to the White Lizard Skin DSP bar tape that I ordered.

Also, I ordered some more up-to-date bottle cages to match the frame.

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Old 01-05-16, 06:16 AM
  #23  
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You may not understand what "slammed" means. It means the stem is as low on the steerer as possible, and generally means the stem angle is parallel to the ground or points down. The difference you'll see on that stem pictured is in length, and if it fits, then go for it.

In my opinion, you would not see anywhere near 1/2 of what you're asking. This thread was moved to the value inquiry thread because you sort of convinced us that you were not trolling to sell it. This is not a sales thread, or a valuation thread, so if that's your goal, the thread needs to be moved from here. If you want to discuss the bike and upgrades, etc, this is a good place, but keep money out of the discussion. The minute it was moved back from the valuation thread, you went right back to discussing value and money. Not here, OK?

Many of us have and appreciate modern bikes, but we are careful not to discuss them here, so the questions about modern bikes are best left to the Road forum, which doesn't have quite the courtesy we do, but you will get some information after you filter out the wise guys.

Your Kestrel is nice, and a quite capable bike, and if you just ride it, you'll quickly realize that. There is a carbon fiber thread here on Classic & Vintage and many bikes on there are worth your time to check out. https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...bon-fiber.html

If there is an older carbon bike that can compete on an even basis with the modern ones, it's a Kestrel, or perhaps an Aegis, but comparisons of value, etc are simply not handled on this forum.

Good luck. Ride hard.

Originally Posted by haggiszero View Post
Do you think I'd be too slammed down with this quill stem? It's -15 degrees. I'm thinking maybe to keep it quill, possibly...I've been wanting to shorten my 110mm (maybe its 100mm) to 80mm.


https://www.brothercycles.com/shop/g...pe-quill-stem/

I think this stem might be a nice contrast to the White Lizard Skin DSP bar tape that I ordered.

Also, I ordered some more up-to-date bottle cages to match the frame.

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Old 03-13-16, 05:18 PM
  #24  
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I wanted to share some updated pics of my bike. Since this thread I've added dura-ace 9000 front and rear derailleurs, ultregra 6800 crankset with a bb-9000, ultegra 6800 brakes, and a ultegra 6800 11-speed cassette. I figured this was a good investment that I could swap onto a newer frame when the time comes.

I'll probably be listing the old dura-ace 7700 groupset - LMK if interested.








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Old 03-13-16, 07:05 PM
  #25  
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looks good! one day i will own a kestrel
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