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Mystery fast back stay Frame

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Mystery fast back stay Frame

Old 02-14-16, 10:12 PM
  #1  
fatbike
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Mystery fast back stay Frame

Any help identifying the builder? I have this bike three years, built it up as a randonneur, and its a great ride. I purchased the frame/fork already painted. I was told it was an American frame builder and resembled a few builders. Maybe Tim Issac, but the seller really didn't know. Filed lugs, beautiful work. Braze ons for mounting randonneur racks front and rear. Campagnolo fork and rear drop out. Frame is built for 700 cant fit anything wider then 28mm tires. I believe its 1980s era. The photos are a little tough, I can take better ones later. Any help would be appreciated. I'm curious. Done lots searching and nothing so far. Thank you.
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Old 02-15-16, 03:44 PM
  #2  
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Real purdy bike! I love that green. I wish I could tell you who made the bike but alas I don't possess that skill. However the folks in Framebuilders or Classic and Vintage might be able to help more.
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Old 02-15-16, 03:54 PM
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Frames can Be Built by a single Individual ... enjoy it.
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Old 02-18-16, 06:02 PM
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Ok guys, thank you.
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Old 02-18-16, 06:17 PM
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What's with that front hub? A generator that runs the headlight?
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Old 02-18-16, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
What's with that front hub? A generator that runs the headlight?
That's a Son dynamo front hub and you are correct it runs a front light and maybe a tail light.
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Old 02-19-16, 08:26 PM
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moved here from General Cycling
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Old 02-19-16, 10:58 PM
  #8  
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Any serial #? Looks a lot like my early 70s Condor, which has a serial # stamped on the left rear dropout.
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Old 02-20-16, 12:21 AM
  #9  
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Yes that sort of "bikini" fastback seat cluster HAS been attributed to Tim Issacs, but there have been a HANDFUL of builders who used the style and Tim was just one. Most of the guys who built them can recognize their work, but since I own a UFO frame with similar seat cluster ( but NOT identical) I can tell you it's been a frustrating slog with NO answers for me. I DO know what my frame is NOT, and Tim Issacs is one of those. Yours has Prugnat headlugs, which might indicate a British builder but I wouldn't jump to conclusions like that! Whatever it is, it's a fine looking frame and a beautiful bike!
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Old 02-20-16, 12:40 AM
  #10  
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Bet a $3 bill (9 Bob Note) that it was made by anyone of a number of US builders in the 1970s.

Similar to an Eisentraut "A" frame in the seat cluster but it's not one of his frames. He used to do classes so it could have been built by one of the students???

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Old 02-22-16, 10:40 PM
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Thank you all for the help. Appreciate it. SON hubs are really great. The best might set up I have ever owned.
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Old 02-22-16, 10:47 PM
  #12  
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You never know Chas. Bernie Mikkelsson very similar style. I searched it. This is Real awesome frame, a tad to big for me unfortunately.

Three digit serial number under the bottom shel is 001

Last edited by fatbike; 02-23-16 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 02-22-16, 11:13 PM
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I never saw one of Bernie's that looked like this one, but if it's actually HIS "001" I'm sure he'd recognize it...and Bernie is one of the few Bay Area or NorCal frame builders that didn't learn (something) from Albert Eisentraut. With a serial number like that I wouldn't be surprised if it was a student's first frame project for a class, and might have been one of Eisentraut's classes! Don't turn up your nose at "student work": there are some VERY talented amateur builders who can surprise you...take a look at what a teen-aged Tom Ritchey built!
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Old 02-22-16, 11:50 PM
  #14  
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my 001 had some other number on it
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Old 02-23-16, 09:29 AM
  #15  
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I won't frown, this frame is quality. In reality, it doesn't matter, just curious. Someone had talent. All this is very helpful and I appreciate the energy going into these questions.


Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
I never saw one of Bernie's that looked like this one, but if it's actually HIS "001" I'm sure he'd recognize it...and Bernie is one of the few Bay Area or NorCal frame builders that didn't learn (something) from Albert Eisentraut. With a serial number like that I wouldn't be surprised if it was a student's first frame project for a class, and might have been one of Eisentraut's classes! Don't turn up your nose at "student work": there are some VERY talented amateur builders who can surprise you...take a look at what a teen-aged Tom Ritchey built!
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Old 02-24-16, 01:46 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
I never saw one of Bernie's that looked like this one, but if it's actually HIS "001" I'm sure he'd recognize it...and Bernie is one of the few Bay Area or NorCal frame builders that didn't learn (something) from Albert Eisentraut.
I didn't run across Bernie or see any of his work until the late 1980's. I used to drop into Eisentraut's shop on occasion back then. He was winding down his building activities.


Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
With a serial number like that I wouldn't be surprised if it was a student's first frame project for a class, and might have been one of Eisentraut's classes!

Don't turn up your nose at "student work": there are some VERY talented amateur builders who can surprise you...take a look at what a teen-aged Tom Ritchey built!
Don't forget Peter Johnson too! He started building frames at age 16!

In talking with Ed Litton about Eisentraut's classes, he commented that some of the "students" made some nice frames...


I'd date the frame to about 1975-76 because of the lugs, BB shell and the Campy 1060 stamped steel vertical dropouts. Brazing washers onto the those dropout was an old trick to change the thickness from ~5mm to ~7mm so that you could change wheels without having to adjust the QR.

By 1977 Suntour and Shimano were supplying forged vertical dropouts.

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Last edited by verktyg; 02-24-16 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 02-24-16, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fatbike View Post
I won't frown, this frame is quality. In reality, it doesn't matter, just curious. Someone had talent.
Many if not most of the frames made by small builders in the US in the 1970s were far better built than a lot of the holy sacred cow British and Italian frame makers were producing at the time!

How do you like the way it rides and handles?

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Old 02-24-16, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post

By 1977 Suntour and Shimano were supplying forged vertical dropouts.

verktyg

Chas.
It seems to me that the Shimano dropouts and fork ends went on the "high end" frames.

Just an observation...
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Old 02-24-16, 06:23 PM
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Rides and handles well. Responsive. Took it on a camp road trip in Puget Sound last fall, no problems with a load or wobbles down steep grades.
Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
Many if not most of the frames made by small builders in the US in the 1970s were far better built than a lot of the holy sacred cow British and Italian frame makers were producing at the time!

How do you like the way it rides and handles?

verktyg

Chas.
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Old 02-25-16, 04:59 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
It seems to me that the Shimano dropouts and fork ends went on the "high end" frames.
Just an observation...
Here's a good BF thread on vertical dropouts:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...ts-1975-a.html

Until the early 1980's very few if any any European production bikes came with vertical dropouts.

Prior to the mid 70's Campagnolo 1060 vertical dropouts where about the easiest to get vertical dropouts outside of France (and maybe the UK). They first appeared in the 1967 Campagnolo catalog.



Campy 1060's were usually used on criterium or time trial frames to allow for easy rear wheel installation and removal with short chain stays. They also make removing and replacing a rear wheel with loaded panniers easier.

1060 Dropouts on my mid 70's Alpine criterium frame built in the UK by Tom Board???




Huret and Simplex made vertical dropout during the 1960's an 70's too. They were forged steel rather than stamped like the Campy 1060 dropouts and were mostly found on custom French constructeur built bikes.




By the late 70's the quality of Suntour dropouts was on a par with Shimano. Suntour components were more commonly used on lower priced bikes while Shimano forged dropouts were used on more expensive models... MWV




I built a number of frames with vertical dropouts with both Campy 1060's and Shimano. They require much more accurate chain stay alignment during brazing than standard horizontal dropouts so they weren't used on a lot of high volume bikes during the 1970's.




The dropouts that I mentioned above were from the same era as @fatbike bike - the mid 70's. I consider his frame "high end" for that time period.


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Last edited by verktyg; 02-25-16 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 02-25-16, 09:48 AM
  #21  
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A wealth of good to know knowledge. Thanks for adding this to the thread. Aways enjoyed road bike diamond frame stuff TOC and 30s - 70s. I believe every era has its craft. But for years I was consumed with 30s heavy weights. But there not practical. And they take up a lot space. I like ride what I own.
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Old 02-25-16, 10:48 AM
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I'm no expert like the others here but that fastback style is Eisentraut and student-ish, and the Campy dropouts sort of point that to direction as well. Serializing it as 001 makes it seem like maybe it's a student one-off. Bruce Gordon's early bikes had a lot of similar features.

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Old 02-25-16, 10:59 AM
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Would close up pictures of the fork crown tell us more?
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Old 02-25-16, 11:52 AM
  #24  
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I've attached some photos of my 78 Tim Isaac, and I suspect your frame was not made by him. When I bought this frame a few years ago, I was able to contact Tim through his company Match Technical, and he was very friendly and helpful. Have you checked whether anything is stamped on the steering tube? On my frame, Tim stamped the date, serial number, builder's initials and fork offset there. He explained all this to me by email.

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Old 03-01-16, 10:15 PM
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Lots of regional small builders experimented with fastbacks. What part of the country did you pick it up in? If you said Minnesota, I'd have a couple of possible suggestions for builders. As Mechanicmatt said, fork crown images ( along with chainstay and brake bridges) may be able to help some.
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